162 Comments
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SimulationCommander's avatar

Here's the flaw in your single chart hypothesis: As they import more D, the "value" of western values in the west is diminished, therefore importing more D is no longer harmful because we're not living under western values anymore!

At least, that's how it went down in the UK.

abstain's avatar

The "value" of western values does not diminish. The number of people adhering to these values diminishes. These few people must be protected by strong borders, so the rest of the world has something to admire.

SimulationCommander's avatar

That's why it's in quotes. We're talking about the mathematical value of how much 'western values' are actually present in the west.

But also it's a joke, so....

Paving the Way's avatar

These seem more like capacities than values. Can someone with a 85 IQ adhere to these higher order values?

abstain's avatar

Someone with Downs Syndrome can adhere to these values.

Lizzie's avatar

That is the province of Religious rules. They profess general rules that work in most cases for most people and produce a self sustaining result that is good in general for society. Those of higher intellect can think things through in more detail, and unfortunately, can tend to rationalize away time-tested limits.

Damon Magness's avatar

A conversation worth having if we are to truly settle some debates NO ONE wants to have.

RetiredCWO's avatar

Well, the uk govt is just jailing the dissenters of their immigration plan, so the uk could import, and probably do, all group D's

Charles weaver's avatar

That would be the “becoming a shithole” corollary whereby you have to keep diminishing average western values

Bill Bradford's avatar

Yes, I get your point. But we don't need any MORE "devil's advocates"! LOL!.... We already have plenty of them!

Karl Snowsill's avatar

The Overton window slides from changing the demographic rather than just changing the minds of the original population.

SimulationCommander's avatar

"Demographics is destiny" wasn't just a cute slogan.

There and Where's avatar

Demographics is a form of warfare. Even the Romans used it. The trick in the West is to change the population before the indigents can get upset and stop it overwhelming them.

See https://therenwhere.substack.com/p/the-new-civil-war-in-britain

jim peden's avatar

I think the Overton Window assumes a unimodal distribution of political opinion (which we can take as a proxy for cultural values). I think it's no longer a good measure.

I believe it's misleading given the multimodal distributions we are getting with 'enclaves' of immigrants (e.g. Tower Hamlets in London). We should have a more realistic measure of the range of opinion since, as the cat has pointed out, we live in a society of mutually exclusive subcultures. Then we might get closer to the way the Overton window is shifting (or not) for each subculture.

Karl Snowsill's avatar

the single axis on the overton window i speak of is: pro western vs anti western. Sure there are several different cultures on the other end of the rope pulling the opposite direction and that the point it doesn’t matter which enclave they are puling towards, but its anti western, and that’s what going to do the damage. Sure its multiple battles (multi modal), religion, culture, language , criminality. Russia does not have problem with immigrants because they have no tolerance for immigrants behaving contrary to Russian culture or law. As the cat pointed out tolerance (kind lies) just makes things worse and encourages bad behavior. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent. Adam Smith

Jennie Lucas's avatar

Haven't the vast majority of immigrants to the US, starting with the Mayflower, lived in enclaves? City neighborhoods have historically been enclaves of various nationalities/ethnicities. The melting pot doesn't really happen until subsequent generations are born here, get educated here, intermarry, etc. Maybe this is happening less now? idk.

¡Andrew the Great!'s avatar

As Matt Walsh has pointed out, *they* ("starting with the Mayflower") weren't immigrants. They were settlers. There was no culture, society, or civilization for them to adapt to or assimilate into. They were building it from scratch.

Then for 100+ years our immigrants came here TO adapt or assimilate. They melted into the pot even though they were first-gen immigrants.

Now, they're not immigrants anymore; they're as egm coined, gimmegrants. A whole separate breed, and a cancer among us.

Karl Snowsill's avatar

Well there was culture and society (native Americans) that they decided not to assimilate into and eventually they dispossessed them of their lands and took over the continent. A cautionary tale.

¡Andrew the Great!'s avatar

There was no culture or society in North America in the 1600s. The land was mostly unoccupied, and the tribes of Indians were separate, disparate, and most were at perpetual war with each other, and "dispossessing" each other of their lands regularly.

They were nomads; heck, they hadn't even domesticated farm animals in the millennia that they were roaming the Plains.

The European settlers *built* civilization here. There was none here before them.

SnowInTheWind's avatar

Interestingly, it was in about the first generation or so that the most assimilation took place. Both sides picked up a number of words from the other. On the English side, 'moose,' 'squaw,' and 'papoose' from the local Algonquian language come to mind. Indians saved some of the early colonists by sharing their crops and teaching them how to grow them. That period used to be celebrated at Thanksgiving, before it became too treacherous to comment on other ethnicities, even favorably. It ended with some existential wars between the colonists and the indigenous people, who were coming to realize the mortal danger they were in as the newcomers expanded.

Flatulus Maximus's avatar

While I agree with the distinction between settlers and immigrants, I see what you mean. I grew up in a predominantly Italian-American neighborhood in Newark in the 1950s-60s. We moved away just prior to the riots. Where once the neighborhood was safe enough to walk to school or the store, gangs of black kids were making life difficult and dangerous. These weren't immigrants in the same sense being discussed here, but they sure didn't share the same values and ruined it for a lot of us. It's doubly difficult for me to see this happening again 60 years later. Do we never learn?

Awilson's avatar

My impression is that many, and perhaps most, immigrants did live in enclaves. Their children assimilated, though. I have read that now some 2nd generation immigrants from the Middle East come to admire the culture that their parents left behind. So while the parents might try to assimilate, the children instead copy the culture from the Old Country. One example of this is 2nd generation women from the Middle East donning head scarves. It seems to me that this is encouraged by a culture in the US that admires hyphenated Americans. A person has trouble being just "American," but can easily become for example an "Arab-American," or "Mexican-American."

ScuzzaMan's avatar

It doesn't follow. Yes, quislings exist and those profiting from treason are vocal supporters of it. But they were always on the far left of the curve (who says God doesn't have a sense of humour?) and you just didn't know it.

Now you do.

Self-identifying traitors should be noted and held accountable. It would be a big mistake to forget and forgive such treachery. Treason should be the most expensive crime there is because it contains the seed of all other crimes.

But look on the bright side; if Britons were not holding to the classic western values the traitors wouldn't need their repressive hate speech laws, community standards moderators, and retarded police officers.

Ed's avatar

Look at western/US culture as Gandhi did. "He wanted to see some"!

Mystic William's avatar

That comment has all the intelligence of a late night talk show comment.

Navyo Ericsen's avatar

The Fabulous United Cultural Kingdom of western values.

There and Where's avatar

Sadly you have put your finger on the problem for the UK. Fifty years of postmodernism/poststructuralism/postmarxism has succeeded at its primary task of removing established social values. The population is now in that desired pre-revolutionary state where it can be moulded to anything or even discarded. Those French philosophers knew their stuff. Expect the UK to either subside into nothing or host a violent reaction.

Navyo Ericsen's avatar

It will not slide into nothing. Pushback is coming. There's a limit people will tolerate.

Damon Magness's avatar

They’ve been bringing people in (with I think considerable volume) since the 90’s as in Blackburn, Bradford, Manchester, places more northern.

Connor Jones's avatar

Yep, you’ve done it again and pretty well summed up my thoughts and feelings and anecdotal experiences on the matter.

I love the second chart even more, though I would change “kind lie” to “nice lie” as niceness is concerned about others perception of you, and kindness is genuinely caring about other people. It’s a little nitpick, but one I’ve thought about a lot due to many people—mostly women—who were never anything but “nice” to me while in actuality were being deeply unkind.

Dolce Far Niente's avatar

"many people—mostly women—who were never anything but “nice” to me while in actuality were being deeply unkind."

Absolute truth here. "Niceness" masks many of the worst behaviors in western society.

TheUnderToad's avatar

Possibly why C.S. Lewis chose the acronym "N.I.C.E." for the evil Institute plotting the takeover of free society in postwar England in his dystopian novel "That Hideous Strength". It's antiphrasis (like nicknaming a bald guy "Curly".)

One is able to do all manner of evil under the guise of the smiling do-gooder. (Think of Nancy Pelosi's favorite false but unassailable defense for her many transgressive attacks on American society: "It's for the children!")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Hideous_Strength#:~:text=That%20Hideous%20Strength:%20A%20Modern,is%20markedly%20dystopian%20in%20style.

Blair's avatar

Reminds me of the song, "Smiling Faces Sometimes" by 'The Temptations'. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing. Deception is the engine that fuels all kinds of evil.

Stewart Shipley's avatar

Hamlet: "One may smile and smile, and be a villain".

Connor Jones's avatar

Hard won lesson for me. So I take any opportunity to share it. Partly out of some selfishness maybe, but largely because I hope I can help someone else start to recognize the difference without painful lessons.

Navyo Ericsen's avatar

It's one very small step from Nice to Nazi.

Yuma's Freezing's avatar

That's why I preferred working with men. Many women are like sharks with smiley face masks, having a full set of cutlery to stab you in the back with.

pretty-red, old guy's avatar

yep, my wife could tell a story or two about that!

Connor Jones's avatar

My sister is going through it with her “friends” right now.

Navyo Ericsen's avatar

I don't know a woman without a full set of cutlery.

pretty-red, old guy's avatar

and it fits in great with the recent Minnesota "nice" nearly non-violent riots here.

Yuma's Freezing's avatar

Do mean all of those white jihadis?

pretty-red, old guy's avatar

mostly white FEMALE, BLUE haired jihadi's . . . a new hybrid.

Yuma's Freezing's avatar

I call those "nice" women b1tches. Because they are not at all nice. Most horrible bosses? Women. Every single one of them.

pretty-red, old guy's avatar

When this started for my wife I was truly amazed-- babe in the woods. I figured women working together would be like a knitting circle where they all had so much fun, and . ..

being a guy, NO clue! Ha!

Damon Magness's avatar

Yes brother, niceness can big such a problem. Interestingly the best way to manipulate people is by being “nice”

ANG Pilot's avatar

The United States ISN'T a Nation of immigrants we're a Nation of AMERICANS.

Our Country didn't become successful and prosperous because immigrants were allowed to force us to adopt their ways.

At one time, at least, we had a culture that was predominant and strong enough so that immigrants had no other choice than to assimilate to OUR ways. Unfortunately, it seems that now about half of our own citizens loathe their own Country and think the immigrant's cultures are superior to our own.

There's a critical mass of our electorate who are infected with toxic altruism and who are driving this Country to commit national suicide.

There and Where's avatar

It all comes down to geopolitics in the end. The toxic altruism is just the steady, subtle drip of China's massive wealth obtained from their trade surplus.

See https://therenwhere.substack.com/p/the-anglosphere-is-dying

In a thousand years time, when democracy is finally re-established, it will be obvious how the National Socialists conquered the West.

Thomas Heltschl's avatar

Don't be too proud. You are historically just Conquistadores and Invaders in a first people land. And the best of your intelligenzia came from good old central europe - a vortex of new chances and better lifes emerged out of that brilliant, moveable and innovative people. But allmost in the beginning there were also the loosers, the 3rd childs, the religious fundamentalists. And so the US was divided from the very start on; its merrits were borrowed, the wealth was stolen, and since the fifties and foremost the seventies you lived under a nonvisible rule of our paperclipped Nazis in the CIA and theyr MKUltra Weltverbesserer. When will the nationbuilding of America start? When will betrayal, wars and deception cease? Your culture needs a brand new fundament, not only power and weapons (a good start only, as Jared Diamond teached.)

ANG Pilot's avatar

You Europeans have always looked down your noses at us Americans. Frankly, I don't give a damn about your criticism anymore.

I'm sure you'll find living in a world dominated by Red Chinese hegemony much more to your liking.

ImanAzol's avatar

We moved here when I was a teen. My father invented a technology everyone in the US and most of the West uses literally every day. I served 25 years in the US military and create lesser things, but still of benefit. We are more American than most Americans.

At that same time, Haitian and Cambodian Boat People were coming in (Jimmy Carter's era) and being given handouts. Were they harmful? Possibly not directly, but they were a resource sink.

Now it's the Somalis, plunging a stent into the vein and siphoning assets off to Shitholistan, while contributing nothing, and arguably infecting America with cultural disease.

Your analysis is spot on.

Tim R's avatar

Obviously we need more like your father, and you. My analogy is American college sports programs - they recruit athletes. The best, most funded programs recruit the best players (and pay them the most and give them the best shot at going pro). That is what the U.S. should do. By my count, the 2% of the global population who Gato estimates are a best fit for western values comes to about 150 million people. Of those, maybe 10-20 percent have the gumption/desire to come to team USA. That's more than enough over time. Recruit them! Hell, pay them a signing bonus. Cut the rest from the team.

Karl Snowsill's avatar

I am I right in assuming your father came from a western country?

ImanAzol's avatar

So did I--I was an adult before my naturalization was complete.

Even from Western countries, selection for higher value immigrants is important. The majority might not hinder, but aren't going to substantively improve the US (or other destination).

Even Europeans moving to other European nations have caused an element of social and economic shift. There's a reason almost every nation requires (on paper) that you either be able to take a job a native can't do, or bring investment capital, and meet standards of education, language, and behavior.

Throwing that all out and bleating that America can't survive without Somalis bringing their "culture" (you can find better culture in a biology lab petri dish) or that agriculture will collapse without "migrants" working for $4/hr (the number that slave-craving Demorrhoids keep spouting) leads to devaluation of the nation's entire economy. Tripling down that it's somehow racist to only want effective immigrants while allowing in rapists, pedos, thugs, Cartel mules, grifters, leeches and Methodists (Blazing Saddles reference) is suicidally retarded.

Karl Snowsill's avatar

Well Australia was founded by convicts, mostly petty theft. Some thefts a were deliberate to get free passage out of England because 7 years in chains was the price of getting to Australia compared to starving to death in England.

The convicts were English and Irish primarily lets say B and C group. Any lingering criminality they had was whipped out of them and then if behaved and worked well they were freed after 7 years labor and they went on to give birth to mostly group B citizens (regression to the mean) and some A and some C.

The convicts that did not reform (D's) were never freed, and never reproduced.

If we had sent the prison guards back to England and not used a English street gang to form the first police force things would have been better. We never got rid of the red coats.

Australia for lack of better more verbose explanation was a mediocre founding stock. But this founding stock was still able to produce greatness. Right now some of the technology you're using in Wi-Fi was invented in Australia, and google maps, black box flight data recorder, the list goes on.

Australia for very long time was famously anti non western migration. If Australia's first PM Edmund Barton was alive today he'd be jailed for hate speech and racism, because he firmly believed exactly what Malo Gato has post here. At the time 126 years ago, it was not a rare or controversial view.

Kate's avatar

Loved the movie “Blazing Saddles”. It could not be made today.

Ryan Gardner's avatar

What went wrong?

Illegals do the jobs sane Americans won't do:

Vote for Democrats

SimulationCommander's avatar

Hey now, plenty of Americans vote Democrat.

Dead people, for starters. Nursing home residents. Homeless people. Pretty much anybody who gets a ballot printed but never actually sees it.

Ryan Gardner's avatar

Lolol. It's always the same.

Step 1: It's not really happening

Step 2: Yeah, it's happening, but it's not a big deal

Step 3: It's a good thing, actually

Step 4: People freaking out about it are the real problem

Steenroid's avatar

You forget the mentally challenged. Otherwise known as retards.

L  Young's avatar

In this country dead people can vote, receive SNAP benefits, get social security, keep their rent controlled apartments. This is such a great country!!!!!We even take care of all the zombies that live among us. We don’t judge them. We’re just happy to help.

Mitch's avatar

Sure there's them, but what about the purely digital folks? Don't forget to count them.

TheUnderToad's avatar

😂 - Just got the joke: the job that sane Americans won't do is to vote for Democrats.

Michael Woods's avatar

That’s the thinking that caused the problem.

Steenroid's avatar

Illegals will do the jobs cheaper.

Maizing's avatar

Yup. It's not that Americans won't do the jobs. It's that the illegals will do them for slave wages.

Flippin’ Jersey's avatar

The floodgates opened when politicians realized they could manipulate immigrants by sticking them on the public dole, knowing they would never vote against their own interests. It’s the only reason unfettered immigration exists. Naked self interest. Cui bono?

L  Young's avatar

Defund all entitlements.

Until the entire debt is paid to Zero not one penny should be spent on one tiny tiny tiny unnecessary thing. Defend the border. Defend the Constitution.

Enforce the law and all the graft, fraud and corruption will wither on the vine. I was taught as a wee lad in public school that once an entitlement program is put into place it can never be defunded. This is a lie from the pit where lies come from. (Probably the state west of Arizona)

Mitch's avatar

entitlements do have a ratchet effect because any politician voting for their removal will face voter backlash. So much easier to give things away than take them back. That's why its so important to fight tooth and nail against any enlargement of the government.

Laura Creighton's avatar

There are a series of papers I read on the Stanford website. One thing that most Americans do not know is that in the days of the great melting pot between 1/3 and 1/2 of the immigrants left. Some went back where they came from. For many of those this had always been the plan .... save enough money then buy a farm in the homeland. But many of the others just failed and left. They went back to the communities which often had staked them for the opportunity in the first place. Others had special skills that were only of use at a particular stage of industrial development, and they moved wherever those skills were in demand. Thus, many of the teams that laid the tracks for the railroads, went wherever more railroads were being built worldwide.

Right now we have the twin problems that failure in the west still gets you a better life on handouts than you could get back in the homeland, plus the people being sent include those whose relatives absolutely never want them back again. Get rich or get dead .... and in either case stop being an embarrassment or a danger to the rest of us. Even a tiny sliver of such people can be an enormous burden, which is precisely why they were offloaded to us in the first place.

John Anthony's avatar

My God Gato Malo, I’ve been waiting at least 4 years for you to nail this! I admit that I don’t have the chops, so I didn’t have the ability to accurately explain it, but you nailed it! Now what? It’s time for you to start laying the foundation we must follow. Otherwise, all we know is who our executioners will be.

JBell's avatar
1dEdited

Yes ...... This!

Buzz S's avatar

RED ALERT! We are so close to the edge of the cliff that a modest addition of C and D immigrants can end it all for us. Challenger GOP tycoon Mitt Romney in infamously private remarks — secretly recorded — during the 2012 campaign lamented the odds of beating Obama were stacked against him ; pundits confirmed the accuracy of his numbers:

“There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That's an entitlement. The government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what.”

12 years later, is the number 49.9? Do we have any breathing room or can only another miracle-maker like DT overcome impossible odds to save us from freeloaders controlling all electoral outcomes?

Crobre's avatar

There is, I suggest, a flaw in your theory that Trump was a "miracle" against the hopelessly dependent on the government when in fact the prototypical supporter does not see the military-intelligence-industrial complex, Social Security, Medicare, surveillance state as dangerous welfare. It still plays to the government should only enforce my tribe mentality. It's why Ron Paul and Thomas Massie are equally reviled by both parties.

Mitch's avatar

Trump is definitely a populist (and thus buys votes), not an old school conservative.

SCA's avatar

Well, we can just look at our own history and how difficult it was to forge a nation-state based on the values of the Western Enlightenment from a collection of colonies each founded by small crazy breakaway sects trying to escape the common culture of their home countries.

Ben Franklin was pretty disfavoring of the Germans in the Colonies and the Germans probably had more in common with Franklin's own English forebears than, say, the Irish did.

And right now we have an awful lot of "heritage Americans" deeply opposed to the values of our foundational documents and entirely incapable of recognizing their error.

The biggest problem we face with immigration is that these days it demands no lifelong commitment to adapt to American culture. But even in the good old days of the 20th century it wasn't at all uncommon for immigrants from southern Europe to spend their productive years here accumulating wealth and then retiring to their home villages and living comfortably on social security checks.

It was only possible to forge good Americans when there was no handout to be gamed and your success depended on your own hard work and a considerable portion of luck.

If you got the magic key that will relock the vaults so we stop giving away all our treasure I'd like to see a workable proposal for it.

Kay's avatar

Not “crazy.” You don’t get the kind of people who founded this nation coming out of crazy forbears. They only seem crazy because the kind of courage and fortitude they displayed is almost unthinkable today.

SCA's avatar

I disagree.

JC's avatar

Franklin is funny. The neighbourhood I come from - along the Ohio River Valley - was settled by very productive Germans. Great furniture, diligent farming. Church services were held in German in my parent's town until the mid-1970's. My Uncle-in-Law spoke with a thick German accent, even though he'd never been to Germany (farmer, made a good living!). These are "Heritage Americans," methinks.

SCA's avatar

There was a specfiic point I was making though.

Burnt taco's avatar

Cut the welfare state benefits to sycophantic hordes from tribal shitholes and declare Islam a political party that does not separate its “church” from its “state” and cannot exist as a country within a country. Deport them all.

Tax revolt time.

SF Bay Area's avatar

This reminds me of the Afghan guy in the DC area who basically committed suicide by cop earlier this year. It also shows that Islam can’t function smoothly in Western society without major reformation.

El Gato is sure to get labeled a racist, xenophobe, Islamophobe, and every other name the left loves to throw around.

https://youtu.be/DchO6ciuJCs?si=Gz3uFo5Q3hySMW-0

Sonia Nordenson's avatar

Excellent, Gato. Including your newly coined term: "Gimmiegrants"!

Randy's avatar

Of course the photo is from Canada 😟 Specifically, Toronto mayor Olivia Chow engaged in Muslim cosplay

JC's avatar

And getting the sole of the Imam's foot pointed straight at her.

Jennie Corsi's avatar

Ayn Rand predicted all of this if socialism took hold in America, as she watched it happen in Russia. It’s not just free stuff immigration. It’s free stuff period.

Brad's avatar

It's easy to see how emotive folks on the left feel that accepting immigrants with lower standards of living into the US is humane and charitable. They likely think too that these immigrants will think well of the folks who orchestrated their arrival and will show some gratitude by supporting the left agenda. The immigrants do temporarily show a certain level of compliance with the left ideology but only until a certain localized population threshold is achieved, at which point the new immigrant community starts exerting its own anti-Western will. They didn't cross the border with their children to start building a family in a healthy community. They were bringing children to extract the maximum amount of misplaced empathy from the political party most helpful to their cause.

Burnt taco's avatar

And extract the most wealth with the least effort.

Once they gain critical mass they destroy the useful idiots that allowed them in. Tribal rules mean tribes rule!

Mitch's avatar

and their children will hate America more than their parents.