You'd have to ask someone specialising in the history and inner goings-on of the Antifa-hydra, and of Arabic-islamic nationalism. My layman's knowledge says that as the Ottoman empire collapsed and the West came to dominate islamic regions in North Africa and the Near East, Arabic-islamic civilisation underwent a culture shock. In Turkey this manifested as Atatürk and his more secular ethnically centered chauvinistic nationalism, which lie close to European fascism of the early 20th century (indeed, the modernist ideas of aplanned society based on science and reason was all the rage from the mid-1800s; if it sounds familiar it is because the current crop of techbro AI-worshippers are just the current revolution on that wheel of ideas).
In the Levant and Persia and Arabia things went harder, and Arabic nationalism was the response, manifesting in among other things as the Moslem Brotherhood.
The reaction to the out-of-context problem of Occidental barbarians roflstomping "god's chosen people" (the Arabs) was either explaining it as a punishment for straying from the Koran, or due to being subject to the Koran's inability to accept change and progress (not in the sense of progressivism, mind).
The "most triumphant example" would be Persia/Iran, though things didn't really come to a head until the 1970s there, Persians empathically not being Arabs but descendents of a highly civilised Empire.
During this time, Marxism/Socialism was introduced in drips and dribbles via many sources, from Arabs and Persians going to universities in Western Europe (to the nations of their colonial overlords, basically, sponsored by those to become better satraps) to post-WW2 active propagandising by Soviet-sponsored communist groups as the Cold War rolled on.
The top-down coercive-control elements of Socialism lends themselves very well to islamic tradition and from the 1920s to present they started meshing together.
It is here Antifa and moslems find common ground.
For external funding (excepting Western capitalist-controlled GONGOs) look to the Gulf States and the Da'wah-mission: various billionaires from the region fund the building of mosques and the spread of salafi islam in the West openly stating that the intent is to conquer and convert. You can follow this as it happens in real time in Michigan now.
There's also been an element of Jewish bankers sponsoring AFA/Antifa, at least here in Sweden (Gabriel Urwitz, one of the funfers and founders of Antifa's front organisation EXPO) but that means there's an actual Israeli involvement or if it is happenstance I cannot say.
Final point:
Antifa's real goal is chaos and disorder and to make the target unable to act, ultimately to make the target think it cannot act and that what is happening to it is a natural and spontaneous occurrence that cannot be resisted. In essence, when the target thinks of its attackers the way we think about the rain - something that simply is and happens under its own power - Antifa will have achieved its goal in that theater.
This strategic meta-level principle stems from its Soviet-sponsored and controlled origins, and is the political derivation of the old Russian tactic of creating chais in all nations bordering Russia proper, so that said neighbours are a) ripe for conquest should it be desired and b) unable to be a threat to Russia. This has been the foundation for Russian military, trade and political endeavours since Peter the Great.
But as I said, if you really want to get at the meat of this, you need a scholar of Arabic islamic recent history (Napoleon to current) with a smidgen of political economy/pol-sci in the mix.
Love your comment. I would add Nasir in Egypt, the whole Arab Nationalism all after WW1. Soviet efforts all around to push communist idea. Even Yemen was communist for a short stint. Funny thing is communism does not stand up easy in a Tribal area.
to understand the geo atrategic and ideological relationships touched on here and to be able to hypothesize and investigate the linkages requires an understanding of thr history of the world few possess - a little overhelming; makes me wonder - does the Khan Academy address, avoid, lack content, or obfuscate such dynamics?
I'm not familiar with the Khan Academy so I can't comment on that.
Otherwise, best I can offer is starting with Huntingdon's "Clash of Cvilisations" and Said's "Orientalism" and then working backwards from their sources.
But this is such a vast topic: we're talking about ca 200 years of history, in a region from the west coast of Africa to the Iranian-Afghan border in the east, adding on Turkey and Arabia Major and Minor plus the entire Levant, the world's second-largest religion, and dozens if not hundreds of ethnic and political groups - all of it mixed together, and to really get into it, you'd need to be able to read French, German, Arabic and Turkic primary sources on the topic.
Which is why I pointed out that I'm a layman, or rank amateur on this area - that's not false modesty, the topic is daunting in complexity and scope and makes Europe's history for the corresponding period look like easy street.
Its not as complex for the entire region as you imply. The world outside of the great cities was tribal. Having spent a reasonable time with bedouin culture and not wanting to dox myself too much can say the back wash of the power centres has a curious familiarity to those all over the world that live in the rural world.
Ottoman history falls from the transition of power from Western and Eastern Roman and the rise of Islam. So much so that Turkish elite customs of the female elite wearing hijab became normal in the backwash parts of the empire.
The Quran does says to be modest and not a black blob. The Niece of the Prophet led armies and was an amazing warrior.
I agree with your assertion that the large cities require more language skills but the power of those cities came from the unwashed masses
Very interesting Rikard. I just read a 'short' entitled the Pakistani-Peruvian Axis which describes in detail the absorbtion of "Arabic Outlook" by Christianity and its spread to the Americas, particularly South. And NY.
(I don't agree with all .... but many main points are extremely compelling. )
;;;;;;; short excerpt of a short article
"Carroll Quigley, in the course of his examination of the failure of most Latin American / South American nations-states, delivered an astonishing analysis of what he believed to be the root cause of these failures in the first edition (1966) of his renowned Tragedy and Hope. Here, in almost an aside, he defines what he calls the "Pakistani-Peruvian axis" - a combination of Asian despotism and Arabic outlook (key word, that - outlook), both of which have their roots in Bronze Age antiquity, that pervade what Quigley calls the shattered cultures that dwell on its axis from Pakistan to the mountains of South America. This analysis makes an appalling sense out the cultural train-wrecks that persist to this day from the Arabic East, through the southern Mediterranean and Spain to South America - and in corporate boardrooms in Paris, London and New York."
You'd have to ask someone specialising in the history and inner goings-on of the Antifa-hydra, and of Arabic-islamic nationalism. My layman's knowledge says that as the Ottoman empire collapsed and the West came to dominate islamic regions in North Africa and the Near East, Arabic-islamic civilisation underwent a culture shock. In Turkey this manifested as Atatürk and his more secular ethnically centered chauvinistic nationalism, which lie close to European fascism of the early 20th century (indeed, the modernist ideas of aplanned society based on science and reason was all the rage from the mid-1800s; if it sounds familiar it is because the current crop of techbro AI-worshippers are just the current revolution on that wheel of ideas).
In the Levant and Persia and Arabia things went harder, and Arabic nationalism was the response, manifesting in among other things as the Moslem Brotherhood.
The reaction to the out-of-context problem of Occidental barbarians roflstomping "god's chosen people" (the Arabs) was either explaining it as a punishment for straying from the Koran, or due to being subject to the Koran's inability to accept change and progress (not in the sense of progressivism, mind).
The "most triumphant example" would be Persia/Iran, though things didn't really come to a head until the 1970s there, Persians empathically not being Arabs but descendents of a highly civilised Empire.
During this time, Marxism/Socialism was introduced in drips and dribbles via many sources, from Arabs and Persians going to universities in Western Europe (to the nations of their colonial overlords, basically, sponsored by those to become better satraps) to post-WW2 active propagandising by Soviet-sponsored communist groups as the Cold War rolled on.
The top-down coercive-control elements of Socialism lends themselves very well to islamic tradition and from the 1920s to present they started meshing together.
It is here Antifa and moslems find common ground.
For external funding (excepting Western capitalist-controlled GONGOs) look to the Gulf States and the Da'wah-mission: various billionaires from the region fund the building of mosques and the spread of salafi islam in the West openly stating that the intent is to conquer and convert. You can follow this as it happens in real time in Michigan now.
There's also been an element of Jewish bankers sponsoring AFA/Antifa, at least here in Sweden (Gabriel Urwitz, one of the funfers and founders of Antifa's front organisation EXPO) but that means there's an actual Israeli involvement or if it is happenstance I cannot say.
Final point:
Antifa's real goal is chaos and disorder and to make the target unable to act, ultimately to make the target think it cannot act and that what is happening to it is a natural and spontaneous occurrence that cannot be resisted. In essence, when the target thinks of its attackers the way we think about the rain - something that simply is and happens under its own power - Antifa will have achieved its goal in that theater.
This strategic meta-level principle stems from its Soviet-sponsored and controlled origins, and is the political derivation of the old Russian tactic of creating chais in all nations bordering Russia proper, so that said neighbours are a) ripe for conquest should it be desired and b) unable to be a threat to Russia. This has been the foundation for Russian military, trade and political endeavours since Peter the Great.
But as I said, if you really want to get at the meat of this, you need a scholar of Arabic islamic recent history (Napoleon to current) with a smidgen of political economy/pol-sci in the mix.
Love your comment. I would add Nasir in Egypt, the whole Arab Nationalism all after WW1. Soviet efforts all around to push communist idea. Even Yemen was communist for a short stint. Funny thing is communism does not stand up easy in a Tribal area.
to understand the geo atrategic and ideological relationships touched on here and to be able to hypothesize and investigate the linkages requires an understanding of thr history of the world few possess - a little overhelming; makes me wonder - does the Khan Academy address, avoid, lack content, or obfuscate such dynamics?
I'm not familiar with the Khan Academy so I can't comment on that.
Otherwise, best I can offer is starting with Huntingdon's "Clash of Cvilisations" and Said's "Orientalism" and then working backwards from their sources.
But this is such a vast topic: we're talking about ca 200 years of history, in a region from the west coast of Africa to the Iranian-Afghan border in the east, adding on Turkey and Arabia Major and Minor plus the entire Levant, the world's second-largest religion, and dozens if not hundreds of ethnic and political groups - all of it mixed together, and to really get into it, you'd need to be able to read French, German, Arabic and Turkic primary sources on the topic.
Which is why I pointed out that I'm a layman, or rank amateur on this area - that's not false modesty, the topic is daunting in complexity and scope and makes Europe's history for the corresponding period look like easy street.
Its not as complex for the entire region as you imply. The world outside of the great cities was tribal. Having spent a reasonable time with bedouin culture and not wanting to dox myself too much can say the back wash of the power centres has a curious familiarity to those all over the world that live in the rural world.
Ottoman history falls from the transition of power from Western and Eastern Roman and the rise of Islam. So much so that Turkish elite customs of the female elite wearing hijab became normal in the backwash parts of the empire.
The Quran does says to be modest and not a black blob. The Niece of the Prophet led armies and was an amazing warrior.
I agree with your assertion that the large cities require more language skills but the power of those cities came from the unwashed masses
Very interesting Rikard. I just read a 'short' entitled the Pakistani-Peruvian Axis which describes in detail the absorbtion of "Arabic Outlook" by Christianity and its spread to the Americas, particularly South. And NY.
(I don't agree with all .... but many main points are extremely compelling. )
;;;;;;; short excerpt of a short article
"Carroll Quigley, in the course of his examination of the failure of most Latin American / South American nations-states, delivered an astonishing analysis of what he believed to be the root cause of these failures in the first edition (1966) of his renowned Tragedy and Hope. Here, in almost an aside, he defines what he calls the "Pakistani-Peruvian axis" - a combination of Asian despotism and Arabic outlook (key word, that - outlook), both of which have their roots in Bronze Age antiquity, that pervade what Quigley calls the shattered cultures that dwell on its axis from Pakistan to the mountains of South America. This analysis makes an appalling sense out the cultural train-wrecks that persist to this day from the Arabic East, through the southern Mediterranean and Spain to South America - and in corporate boardrooms in Paris, London and New York."
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2807571/posts