I’m so tired of hearing people discuss the right to choose. Everyone has a choice to not get pregnant in the first place. I’m sick of the hedonistic world we live in where people would rather decide when a baby is a person worth having love rather than practice some self restraint.
Oh, the old "people should not have sex if they don't want to have a child." Find me an example of any time in history or any society where people abstained from sex at this level? It doesn't exist, because this is not realistic for human beings.
So if a married couple does not want to have kids, they should not consummate their marriage?
There’s so much about our body and it’s cycles that we aren’t taught and should be. There’s a really good book out called ‘Taking Charge of your Fertility,’ that I think young women should be encouraged to read. You’re only fertile about 4 days of your cycle.
Yes. This is what is called NFP in Catholic circles. This doesn't mean it is easy, either. My husband and I certainly had our moments of frustration because when a woman is fertile, the biological drive is pretty overpowering.
I guess I need to know what you mean by "at this level." Really we are just talking about if you aren't in a place to accept the possibility of a child being conceived as the result of a sexual encounter, then maybe postpone it. That's all. Or, if you can't or don't want to, take some precautions (which, yes, can fail which is why I go back to my first point).
What you are proposing is that we should have a society in which no one ever has sex unless they wish to conceive a child. I am saying that no society like that has ever existed, or ever will. You are being entirely unrealistic about human nature.
Have you polled all the 20 something men you know to see if they would be willing to completely give up all sex except when they intend to conceive a child? Because I think I can guess what the answer would be from almost all.
I don't think the poster was arguing for sex only when a couple "intends to" conceive a child. Rather they were suggesting along the lines of, have sex only if you are *willing to* carry a pregnancy to term (or support your partner in doing so, if male), in the possibly unlikely event that pregnancy happens (depending on what choices of contraception you make).
Precisely. I am not naive about human nature. I have five children, 2 of them currently young men in their 20s. I'm also in the middle of a Bible study which reminds me almost daily that there is "nothing new under the sun" and sexual temptation and the consequences of it have always been and will remain with us. I'm asking for a little self-control exercised judiciously. It seems, you Allie, are suggesting that humans can't possibly display this sort of control.
It's fine for you to live as you wish. It is not fine for you to think you have the right to impose your life style and religious beliefs on the rest of the country.
It's amazing to me that so many commenters here are, rightfully, appalled at vaccine mandates, but have no qualms about imposing very similiar mandates when it comes to abortion.
"Keep Your Laws Off My Body" should apply in both situations.
More specifically, the couple should use all the birth control methods at their disposal and have a plan of what to do if they do get pregnant. Which does not include killing the child they WILLINGLY created.
Pro-abortion proponents have successfully removed 'personal responsibility' from the equation for my entire life. It's a cornerstone of progressive thought.
I am aware there is a .08% (or something very similar) chance getting raped and then getting pregnant. There is also the morning after pill. So I am still sticking with my statement.
First, condoms fail at about a 14% rate (see below).. Assuming 75million sexually active couples out of which maybe half are using condoms to not get pregnant, that’s about 5.2 million mistakes and possible unwanted pregnancies a year..
Second, I found this in-depth study to be really interesting and enightening regarding the ACTUAL statistical FACTS involved in banning abortions (in short - number of abortions stays the same regardless of whether they're legal or not, no fetuses are "saved" through a ban, all that the ban does is push abortions underground, kills more women, hurt living children & destroys countless families with several other horrific consequences for society that are elaborated on in the investigation).
Third - i learned on this link (and the studies leading out from it) that suicide is the leading cause of death for new mothers in America, with no paid parental leave, no maternal health care, no child care.
Out of 193 countries on this planet, the only ones who do not provide paid parental leave to their citiziens are Papua New Guinea, Surinam, Lesotho and USA!! All becasue cruel evil anti-life republican capitalist billonaire psychopaths, in their war against families mothers and babies, have brainwashed americans to view this as "evil socialism".
Once you're an ex-fetus these evil monsters lose all interest in you and abandon you (that is, until you reach military age, then they want to use you for their plunder invasions)
They only time america is 'pro-life' is when it's time to strip women of their control over their their body and fate and force them to give birth AGAINST THEIR WISH. The rest of the time the spit on you and abandon you and the baby they forced you bring into the world against your wish, the rest of the time they are MURDERING BABIES by the millions across the planet (roughly 2.7 million babies murdered by USA in the last 70 years) in their imperialist wars for resource plunder, for enforcing their global hegemony and for terrorizing and forcing countries to privatize their economy - industry, services, and resources - into the private hamds of american companies (but the babies americans are murdering in tbe process are not christian, so its no biggie)
Fourth - not hard data but just my learned observation that you're operating out of HUGE BLIND SPOT, a shadow you're unconscious of, some form of unmet/unfaced pain, anger or fear that comes out to the surface as vindictiveness and desire to punish those who don't lead the life that you think is righteous.
in my observation you're displaying psychologically-immature/unconsciousness in that you were led to believe that you are morally or spiritually superior and posses the truth and that that in turn allows you to punish, impose and force your childish beliefs on others, to take away from others their control over their body and the fate of their life and impose on them your preferred "righteous" life scripts that you're tyranically trying to enforce people to follow.
If I may say so, these TYRANICAL, AUTHORITARIAN & PATERNALISTIC ACTIONS arise in a person as a result of being unconscious of one's shadow, of the unmet/unprocessed anger, fear and pain in oneself (and also shame, in some cases), which leads one to exhibit a punishing vindictive tyranical behavior accompanied by a righteous belief that one is morally & spiritually superior which she thinks makes her justified in forcing and imposing her dogmas and worldview on others. This is a very well-known tendency in psychology and now we have a whole religious cult inflicted by this huge blind spot/unconsciousness of their unprocessed anger, fear and pain, with disastrous consequences for women's lives and bodies, on whom they play out their childish beliefs of moral & spiritual superiority, as well as their punishing mentality..
I strongly reject the spiritual supriority notion that you know best how people should live, and that you know people's inner experience (whetjer one is ready to become a parent or not) better than they do, which apparently gives you the right to decide for people and force them to become a parent AGAINST MY WISH, becasue you supposedly know what's right for them. This sense permeates your comments, and i think it stems from the same unconsciousness I described above.
I know you think these are all good points which is great for you. You’ve listed this four different times on this post. Curious as to why? Who pays you?
Of the 63+ million abortions performed since Roe, I suspect the one that fall under your category are miniscule. It's such a weak rebuttal but I have heard it for decades.
Ok so if we make it so that the law allows abortions for the tiny percentage that make up rape and serious physical health problems to either the mother or the unborn are you then ok with making abortion illegal in all other circumstances which are generally down to lifestyle choices?
I’m so tired of hearing people discuss the right to choose. Everyone has a choice to not get pregnant in the first place. I’m sick of the hedonistic world we live in where people would rather decide when a baby is a person worth having love rather than practice some self restraint.
Oh, the old "people should not have sex if they don't want to have a child." Find me an example of any time in history or any society where people abstained from sex at this level? It doesn't exist, because this is not realistic for human beings.
So if a married couple does not want to have kids, they should not consummate their marriage?
There’s so much about our body and it’s cycles that we aren’t taught and should be. There’s a really good book out called ‘Taking Charge of your Fertility,’ that I think young women should be encouraged to read. You’re only fertile about 4 days of your cycle.
Yes. This is what is called NFP in Catholic circles. This doesn't mean it is easy, either. My husband and I certainly had our moments of frustration because when a woman is fertile, the biological drive is pretty overpowering.
Yes but it’s more than that. As a woman who has struggled with fertility issues I wish I had been taught this earlier in life
Absolutely! I agree.
Agreed, I had no idea until I read that book.
It’s amazing how in 2022 you can make the argument you just made. Laughable really.
I guess I need to know what you mean by "at this level." Really we are just talking about if you aren't in a place to accept the possibility of a child being conceived as the result of a sexual encounter, then maybe postpone it. That's all. Or, if you can't or don't want to, take some precautions (which, yes, can fail which is why I go back to my first point).
What you are proposing is that we should have a society in which no one ever has sex unless they wish to conceive a child. I am saying that no society like that has ever existed, or ever will. You are being entirely unrealistic about human nature.
Have you polled all the 20 something men you know to see if they would be willing to completely give up all sex except when they intend to conceive a child? Because I think I can guess what the answer would be from almost all.
I don't think the poster was arguing for sex only when a couple "intends to" conceive a child. Rather they were suggesting along the lines of, have sex only if you are *willing to* carry a pregnancy to term (or support your partner in doing so, if male), in the possibly unlikely event that pregnancy happens (depending on what choices of contraception you make).
Precisely. I am not naive about human nature. I have five children, 2 of them currently young men in their 20s. I'm also in the middle of a Bible study which reminds me almost daily that there is "nothing new under the sun" and sexual temptation and the consequences of it have always been and will remain with us. I'm asking for a little self-control exercised judiciously. It seems, you Allie, are suggesting that humans can't possibly display this sort of control.
It's fine for you to live as you wish. It is not fine for you to think you have the right to impose your life style and religious beliefs on the rest of the country.
It's amazing to me that so many commenters here are, rightfully, appalled at vaccine mandates, but have no qualms about imposing very similiar mandates when it comes to abortion.
"Keep Your Laws Off My Body" should apply in both situations.
Yes.
More specifically, the couple should use all the birth control methods at their disposal and have a plan of what to do if they do get pregnant. Which does not include killing the child they WILLINGLY created.
Pro-abortion proponents have successfully removed 'personal responsibility' from the equation for my entire life. It's a cornerstone of progressive thought.
" Everyone has a choice to not get pregnant in the first place."
This is obviously not true.
I am aware there is a .08% (or something very similar) chance getting raped and then getting pregnant. There is also the morning after pill. So I am still sticking with my statement.
Four things -
First, condoms fail at about a 14% rate (see below).. Assuming 75million sexually active couples out of which maybe half are using condoms to not get pregnant, that’s about 5.2 million mistakes and possible unwanted pregnancies a year..
https://www.emedicinehealth.com/ask_how_often_do_condoms_fail/article_em.htm
Second, I found this in-depth study to be really interesting and enightening regarding the ACTUAL statistical FACTS involved in banning abortions (in short - number of abortions stays the same regardless of whether they're legal or not, no fetuses are "saved" through a ban, all that the ban does is push abortions underground, kills more women, hurt living children & destroys countless families with several other horrific consequences for society that are elaborated on in the investigation).
https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/banning-abortions-will-not-stop-abortions
Third - i learned on this link (and the studies leading out from it) that suicide is the leading cause of death for new mothers in America, with no paid parental leave, no maternal health care, no child care.
Out of 193 countries on this planet, the only ones who do not provide paid parental leave to their citiziens are Papua New Guinea, Surinam, Lesotho and USA!! All becasue cruel evil anti-life republican capitalist billonaire psychopaths, in their war against families mothers and babies, have brainwashed americans to view this as "evil socialism".
Once you're an ex-fetus these evil monsters lose all interest in you and abandon you (that is, until you reach military age, then they want to use you for their plunder invasions)
They only time america is 'pro-life' is when it's time to strip women of their control over their their body and fate and force them to give birth AGAINST THEIR WISH. The rest of the time the spit on you and abandon you and the baby they forced you bring into the world against your wish, the rest of the time they are MURDERING BABIES by the millions across the planet (roughly 2.7 million babies murdered by USA in the last 70 years) in their imperialist wars for resource plunder, for enforcing their global hegemony and for terrorizing and forcing countries to privatize their economy - industry, services, and resources - into the private hamds of american companies (but the babies americans are murdering in tbe process are not christian, so its no biggie)
https://www.kindredmedia.org/2022/05/allomothers-we-were-never-meant-to-mother-alone/
Fourth - not hard data but just my learned observation that you're operating out of HUGE BLIND SPOT, a shadow you're unconscious of, some form of unmet/unfaced pain, anger or fear that comes out to the surface as vindictiveness and desire to punish those who don't lead the life that you think is righteous.
in my observation you're displaying psychologically-immature/unconsciousness in that you were led to believe that you are morally or spiritually superior and posses the truth and that that in turn allows you to punish, impose and force your childish beliefs on others, to take away from others their control over their body and the fate of their life and impose on them your preferred "righteous" life scripts that you're tyranically trying to enforce people to follow.
If I may say so, these TYRANICAL, AUTHORITARIAN & PATERNALISTIC ACTIONS arise in a person as a result of being unconscious of one's shadow, of the unmet/unprocessed anger, fear and pain in oneself (and also shame, in some cases), which leads one to exhibit a punishing vindictive tyranical behavior accompanied by a righteous belief that one is morally & spiritually superior which she thinks makes her justified in forcing and imposing her dogmas and worldview on others. This is a very well-known tendency in psychology and now we have a whole religious cult inflicted by this huge blind spot/unconsciousness of their unprocessed anger, fear and pain, with disastrous consequences for women's lives and bodies, on whom they play out their childish beliefs of moral & spiritual superiority, as well as their punishing mentality..
I strongly reject the spiritual supriority notion that you know best how people should live, and that you know people's inner experience (whetjer one is ready to become a parent or not) better than they do, which apparently gives you the right to decide for people and force them to become a parent AGAINST MY WISH, becasue you supposedly know what's right for them. This sense permeates your comments, and i think it stems from the same unconsciousness I described above.
I know you think these are all good points which is great for you. You’ve listed this four different times on this post. Curious as to why? Who pays you?
Of the 63+ million abortions performed since Roe, I suspect the one that fall under your category are miniscule. It's such a weak rebuttal but I have heard it for decades.
Ok so if we make it so that the law allows abortions for the tiny percentage that make up rape and serious physical health problems to either the mother or the unborn are you then ok with making abortion illegal in all other circumstances which are generally down to lifestyle choices?
Amen.
*life not love
Either works, really.
Yes:)!