Some points for thought, definitely. Argues further for an informed choice. I am seeing the "common good" being harmed in many ways, some you mention I'd not realized. The point on enabling addiction is worth pondering. It is surely not a kindness. And I see it all the time: either because of false information that the mask somehow protects them, or a flawed belief they are helping the grater good, or just because it's a habit, the mask wearing continues - and see people alone in a car wearing masks. Had a professor of physics (really) try to convince me that the DoT/CDC mandate for truckers to wear masks WHILE ALONE IN THEIR TRUCKS made sense. That kind of loyalty induced brain death is worrying, for sure.
FWIW I don't see the need to stop other people from smoking tobacco (or anything else) when I'm not around. Your lungs, your choice. I mean, I even tolerate people who carry M1911a1s chambered in 9mm :-).
“ I don't see the need to stop other people from smoking tobacco (or anything else) when I'm not around.” I note that you add the caveat “when I’m not around”, indicating that harm to others limits their choice. And masks are extremely harmful to others, as I indicated. In addition to the things I mentioned, they establish an atmosphere of fear, not just of a trumped up “deadly virus” but of other people, saying that we are all dangerous bioweapons set to kill one another without warning, better avoided, and not to be trusted. They also, as an act of irrational compliance, send a signal legitimizing the totalitarian biofascists’ demands that we follow orders that are contrary to science, instinct and common sense. They are telling children that this is normal and helping to create a fearful, unthinking generation that will cement dystopia in place for decades at least. Wearing masks, unless alone in the desert or at home, is not simply a personal choice.
I do NOT suggest that "harm to others" justifies limiting their choice. In fact tobacco smoke doesn't bother me at all (and I've seen the "second had smoke" argument for what it is). Pot smoke does, so I choose not to be around people smoking pot. That is MY choice. Didn't mean to suggest I'd impose restrictions on others, beyond perhaps the restriction of not having me hanging out with you.
I agree that the "for the protection of others" should always be suspected (and usually based on a collection of false premises and faulty logic). It is the most popular claim of totalitarian fascists in modern history.
I think you raise a valid challenge to my "if it doesn't do harm". I was considering the harm to myself, which I feel I can manage with safe mask practices. The use of mask mandates as a political tool to deepen division and justify hate is definite harm. The characterization of scientific method as "disinformation" is definitely harming millions of people. I had not associated those harms with my choice to cover my face.
Let's ponder the argument. Is my choice to cover my face the trigger? I see your point that it might support fear. But ultimately, is it not your choice to believe in false gods and political propaganda while ignoring the actual science? Is it not a choice to comply, irrationally and absolutely, even when your own faculties are capable of seeing the flaws and warning signs? Where is the edge of that cliff?
I can tell you that putting control of educating our children soley in the hands of governments is way over that line - it is the rocks at the bottom of the cliff. And that's real long term harm to all of humanity. That's why billions of people are willing to abandon not only their freedoms but condemn all of us to totalitarian rule in some irrational belief it is for our own good. That's how I see it, at least - generations educated by the state just happen to be loyal and submissive to the state. By design.
FWIW when I'm with folks who are bothered by tobacco smoke, I may politely ask someone to not smoke around us. I have never had a tobacco smoker be an ass**** when asked politely. Not once has a polite request been met with anything other than "sure, no problem". That's my personal experience. Of course I'm considerate too - if I walk into a smoke filled bar or nightclub (the do still exist), I'm not going to ask the people already there to stop, as that make me the ass**** and I do attempt to avoid being a jerk (I said attempt... ;-). Pot smokers are an entirely different experience....
I’m sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I was not suggesting (nor did I think you were) that there should be any laws, regulations, mandates, etc against people choosing to wear masks. If that was your impression, I’m sorry. All I was saying is that I don’t consider it something basically neutral and I will continue us to argue against it. Too many people think it is a harmless action that has no negative consequences and they need to know that’s not true. That doesn’t mean I think they should be subject to laws, mandates or punishment—beyond my disapproval which I reserve the right to express when and where I consider it appropriate.
Some points for thought, definitely. Argues further for an informed choice. I am seeing the "common good" being harmed in many ways, some you mention I'd not realized. The point on enabling addiction is worth pondering. It is surely not a kindness. And I see it all the time: either because of false information that the mask somehow protects them, or a flawed belief they are helping the grater good, or just because it's a habit, the mask wearing continues - and see people alone in a car wearing masks. Had a professor of physics (really) try to convince me that the DoT/CDC mandate for truckers to wear masks WHILE ALONE IN THEIR TRUCKS made sense. That kind of loyalty induced brain death is worrying, for sure.
FWIW I don't see the need to stop other people from smoking tobacco (or anything else) when I'm not around. Your lungs, your choice. I mean, I even tolerate people who carry M1911a1s chambered in 9mm :-).
“ I don't see the need to stop other people from smoking tobacco (or anything else) when I'm not around.” I note that you add the caveat “when I’m not around”, indicating that harm to others limits their choice. And masks are extremely harmful to others, as I indicated. In addition to the things I mentioned, they establish an atmosphere of fear, not just of a trumped up “deadly virus” but of other people, saying that we are all dangerous bioweapons set to kill one another without warning, better avoided, and not to be trusted. They also, as an act of irrational compliance, send a signal legitimizing the totalitarian biofascists’ demands that we follow orders that are contrary to science, instinct and common sense. They are telling children that this is normal and helping to create a fearful, unthinking generation that will cement dystopia in place for decades at least. Wearing masks, unless alone in the desert or at home, is not simply a personal choice.
I do NOT suggest that "harm to others" justifies limiting their choice. In fact tobacco smoke doesn't bother me at all (and I've seen the "second had smoke" argument for what it is). Pot smoke does, so I choose not to be around people smoking pot. That is MY choice. Didn't mean to suggest I'd impose restrictions on others, beyond perhaps the restriction of not having me hanging out with you.
I agree that the "for the protection of others" should always be suspected (and usually based on a collection of false premises and faulty logic). It is the most popular claim of totalitarian fascists in modern history.
I think you raise a valid challenge to my "if it doesn't do harm". I was considering the harm to myself, which I feel I can manage with safe mask practices. The use of mask mandates as a political tool to deepen division and justify hate is definite harm. The characterization of scientific method as "disinformation" is definitely harming millions of people. I had not associated those harms with my choice to cover my face.
Let's ponder the argument. Is my choice to cover my face the trigger? I see your point that it might support fear. But ultimately, is it not your choice to believe in false gods and political propaganda while ignoring the actual science? Is it not a choice to comply, irrationally and absolutely, even when your own faculties are capable of seeing the flaws and warning signs? Where is the edge of that cliff?
I can tell you that putting control of educating our children soley in the hands of governments is way over that line - it is the rocks at the bottom of the cliff. And that's real long term harm to all of humanity. That's why billions of people are willing to abandon not only their freedoms but condemn all of us to totalitarian rule in some irrational belief it is for our own good. That's how I see it, at least - generations educated by the state just happen to be loyal and submissive to the state. By design.
FWIW when I'm with folks who are bothered by tobacco smoke, I may politely ask someone to not smoke around us. I have never had a tobacco smoker be an ass**** when asked politely. Not once has a polite request been met with anything other than "sure, no problem". That's my personal experience. Of course I'm considerate too - if I walk into a smoke filled bar or nightclub (the do still exist), I'm not going to ask the people already there to stop, as that make me the ass**** and I do attempt to avoid being a jerk (I said attempt... ;-). Pot smokers are an entirely different experience....
I’m sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I was not suggesting (nor did I think you were) that there should be any laws, regulations, mandates, etc against people choosing to wear masks. If that was your impression, I’m sorry. All I was saying is that I don’t consider it something basically neutral and I will continue us to argue against it. Too many people think it is a harmless action that has no negative consequences and they need to know that’s not true. That doesn’t mean I think they should be subject to laws, mandates or punishment—beyond my disapproval which I reserve the right to express when and where I consider it appropriate.
Understood. And some good points raised, worthy of thought. Lots of thought!