I think the concern following the results in the Harvard/Brigham paper is that they have shown that there is S1 in the plasma, i.e. not confined simply to expression on the surface of cells. When people have expressed concern about the vaccines in terms of "is spike by itself dangerous", the expert answer has been "the spike only appears partially extruded on a cell surface", i.e. it can't get to the lungs, the vascular epithelium, etc. The paper shows that is not correct, which in turn suggests we don't completely know all the downstream consequences.
The larger theoretical concern, in my view, with the mRNA vaccines is that the set of cells that can be "transfected" by the lipid nanoparticles (LPNs) is essentially all cells, in distinction to the SARS2 virus, which can only infect cells with ACE2 receptors. In other words, any cell that the LPNs reach can end up expressing spike on its surface, and thereby invite immune attack. So it matters very much that the belief is that this will be mainly local muscle, and next most-likely local lymph nodes. But we also know that with decreasing probability (per animal study) the LPNs reach essentially every organ including the brain and the bone marrow. The other thing I find interesting is that the kinds of adverse events that are beginning to emerge as related (I have more ideas about how to do that analysis better) are of the type and range you might expect if caused by comparatively uncommon but diverse instances of mRNA getting around: eg myocarditis (heart cells), thrombosis (vascular epithelium, platelets, perhaps bone marrow), various forms of neuritis (ocular, vestibular, peripheral) via nerve cells, and so on. To get a handle on the range of adverse effects you need to collate all of these, since they each present as a unique type of relatively rare event. But they do have in common the potential mechanism of targeted inflammation and/or cell damage that would be caused by spike expression in a particular cell type.
on your first point, i'm not clear why anyone would expect it to be confined to cell surfaces. that's where it expresses initially, but that then triggers immune response which in turn will kill sells and scatter proteins into plasma. how else could that wind up? so, unless i'm missing something, it seems to me that finding it in plasma would be something of a forgone conclusion.
the question then becomes how much is there, how harmful is it, and for how long? it seems like these concentrations are pretty low (again, unless i'm misinterpreting something). they also seem transient.
this does lead the "how harmful is S1 to various tissues" and "what tissues can it affect or penetrate"? these seem like open issues that need more work.
if i'm following your second point, now we're looking at S1 presentation in cells where immune attack can be particularly dangerous. can you cite some work to read on this?
it would make sense that these things could cause a wide array of complications and do so in hard to predict fashion and for hard to predict reasons. it would also be devilishly difficult to monitor and quantify as you'd essentially need to measure divergence from baseline to get anywhere and so you'd need HUGE datasets to catch rare outcomes.
seems like this could take years to understand and require actual RCT which seems like it's already too late for. i'm not even sure you could get to this meaningfully via retrospective.
With respect to your first points I agree: we would expect spike antigen in the plasma, and the question is how much and is it harmful (it is also true though that this likelihood was downplayed.) I also suspect that the danger coming from this effect is pretty low, with one caveat. The amount of S1 is presumably dose-related, and the dose selected for Pfizer and Moderna was designed to produce sufficient antibody response in older people. The EUA for ages 12-15 did not involve any stepped down dose, and the antibody titers produced were 4-fold higher than 20 year olds, which are in turn several fold higher than the average in the trials. I believe the dose is too high for kids, and maybe too high for women and other subpopulations. Also with respect to harms from just free S1, there is this paper describing how It can cause "thrombosis, inflammation, and pulmonary damage", so there is theoretically an issue.
Re the likely more important issue of where the mRNA goes and which cells are therefore targeted by the immune system -- best discussion of this is in the comments section of the article below. Scroll to first comment by Dr. Ulm; what follows is a very informed and reasonable back and forth with a lot of technical detail by people who seem to know what they are talking about. Very worth reading:
With respect to how to discover these kinds of adverse effects, I think this can be done. I have an idea for how to find significance in VAERS, which of course is difficult: we have the atypical circumstance that we have several vaccines released at basically the same time, and being taken up essentially randomly (not completely of course) by the US population. The idea is to use one vaccine as a control against the others. If events are occurring without causation, then they should occur at the same relative frequency for each vaccine (modulo a few things like age or gender distribution for different vaccines, but this can be controlled by narrowing the age range, single gender, etc.) I've done a few simple analyses like this (eg picking say 5 adverse events, and comparing relative frequency across vaccines). There is strong evidence that myocarditis is connected to both mRNAs, but not to J&J: the "vectors" of relative frequency should be parallel if it's all background events, but Pfizer and Moderna have much stronger components in "myocarditis". I am planning to try to do a much more systematic analysis on the full data set, and see what adverse events are differentially represented.
i like your idea of cross vax control as a way to measure the mRNA tissue infection issues as it would seem to control for generalized immune response vs specific tissue issues. it does leave the lingering question of "is the VAERS database actually any good?" i've heard multiple takes on this, but several people i believe to be well informed feel that it's missing many AE's because it (AT BEST) does not know what to look for because the tissue issues from mRNA could crop up anywhere or (AT WORST) it's being deliberately under/non-reported because docs don't want to really count AE's, nor does the government or the drug companies. initial trials were too small to find low incidence outcomes in hard to predict places.
i'm really not sure we're working with a great dataset here and if we are not, it's going to stymie analysis.
I was thinking a bit further about the Brigham/Harvard study and their finding (maybe very low amounts) S1 in the plasma: see slides at the link below from a UofW presentation re how the mRNAs work. This is not my technical specialty, but if the mechanism we are presuming for S1 in plasma is just breakdown by immune attack of cells that received mRNA lpns, it is a bit surprising to find intact S1. The graphic re Pfizer/Moderna action shows how chopped up antigens from the spike are presented outside the cell in MHCs, and also the spike itself. It should be note though that this is "stabilized spike", modified from origin spike to not be cleaved at the (famous) furin cleavage site (because if it were we would not see full spike exterior to the cell, it would be cleaved inside the cell.) Modulo not knowing the full details of the assays used in the study, it seems surprising that S1, as opposed to just chopped up bits of spike, is detectable in plasma. An alternative mechanism is that cells in blood and/or bone marrow are receiving mRNA lpns and presenting spike (I admit I'm not sure why more full S is not seen then), which if true would support the theory that mRNA lpns might be getting around more than we though. I think it's worth chasing down what mechanisms would produce the results they found.
i received my second moderna shot on 7 May at a US military clinic. they created a paper and tagged it with a stick on with lot number and 3 ml or 5 ml. Mine was checked for 5 ml being over 70. i suspect from that there are two doses more for older as in flu vax...
generally if you get a vax you r exposed the subject to some or all bad things the virus and immune respond do.
is vax risk worse than chancing getting the virus and that choice result?
corona virus infections are [hopefully at low prevalence] linked to some long term central nervous system "problems". ethical skeptic linked to a study a few months ago on lewey body and plaques in lab mice brains.....
as in any long term issue it may be the virus/protein or it may be the immune response...
cns issues another variable, for risk analysis......
my answer was 'over 70, not that long to live with the lower than the disease lt sides".....
All of this jives with my casual exploration of the data. The vaccine seems quite safe for most in the short term. For those with significant risk factors for poor Covid outcomes, the vaccine seems a very reasonable option. The question of both long-term efficacy and long-term negative effects is still in question, particularly for those cohorts excluded from the initial trials, i.e. the young, pregnant women, those who have had Covid, etc.
It is truly remarkable that we were able to develop this vaccine so quickly and that it appears to have such a high level of efficacy. It is however unconscionable that governments, public health officials, businesses and schools would advise those with low risks or (and more disturbingly) compel *anyone,* regardless of their risk profile, to accept what is still a very new bit of technology.
mrna research has been ongoing. moderna went on contract with darpa in 2013. broader study is area called pandemic prevention platform. bio warfare pharma response. get big pharma in to the pentagon gravy train! moderna vax is better than tang!
mrna for tailored cancer has been studied for quite some time. feature is once you characterize the mRNA you want to emulate t is relatively quick. the idea for cancer is get mRNA to enter tumor, display a protein on surface and white blood cells respond to exposed cells.
Are the vaccine-encoded spike proteins capable of causing injury? That's the question. Would that we had the answer before hundreds of millions were injected.
There are 4,201 deaths and thousands of reports of serious injury following Covid19 "vaccines" in the VAERS. That's more deaths reported than for all other vaccines combined going back fifteen years. Yes, some are unrelated. But all of them? There are fifteen and sixteen-year-olds who died of cardiac arrest. Other reports of teens with rare blood clots in the brain from both the viral vector vaccines and mRNA vaccines. The data in EudraVigilance is even worse.
Did the vaccine-encoded spike protein cause of these injuries and deaths? Who knows? They won't even admit there's a problem.
The public health "experts" have been pushing these experimental "vaccines" on pregnant women and those with prior infection, even though both groups were excluded from the trials. They are pushing the "vaccines" for children who have almost no risk of serious disease with infection. Over a hundred colleges and universities are now mandating a "vaccine" as a condition of attendance for a virus that poses very low risk to most students. None of this makes sense. The virus simply doesn't justify the risk of the vaccine for these people. So, why are they doing this?
Moreover, the EUAs for all of these "vaccines" do not claim to prevent infection or transmission of the virus. They only claim to mitigate symptoms with infection. There have been several thousand breakthrough infections recorded in "fully vaccinated" people. Over a thousand were hospitalized and about 225 have died. A couple weeks ago, the CDC lowered the PCR cycle threshold to 28 for the "fully vaccinated". Shortly thereafter, they announced they would only report hospitalizations and deaths for breakthrough infections. If the news was good, would they do this?
A week or so ago, Walensky told the talking heads on cable that "fully vaccinated" people with mild or asymptomatic infection have small amounts of virus in their systems and do not present a risk. Wait...isn't that the reason the world shut down? Didn't you tell us that people with asymptomatic infection are modern day Typhoid Marys? Even the sheep saw the flaw in the narrative, so she and Leana Wen tried to claim that mild or asymptomatic infection in the "fully vaccinated" was somehow different than it is in the unvaccinated. I'm sorry...wut? How? Because we said so isn't gonna cut it.
I've also heard stories of asymptomatic transmission from "fully vaccinated" people to others, but I haven't explored it yet. I'm not convinced these "vaccines" are as good as advertised. Some (Vanden Bossche and Montagnier) are concerned that mass vaccination with a leaky "vaccine" during a pandemic will create more dangerous variants. Others are concerned for antibody enhanced disease in the fall/winter, which they fear will be used to push boosters.
The Salk just determined that the wild spike protein is the likely cause of the cardiovascular injuries seen in some. Clearly, whatever changes pharma made to nerf the spike didn't factor this concern. If they weakened the ability of the spike to injure, it was an accident.
Someone needs to study the effect of vaccine-encoded spike protein on endothelial cells...soon.
I always wanted to commit the madness of talking about a phenomenon not documented in Immunology, but widely commented by popular people.
When the flu vaccine started, what I heard most from acquaintances (see, it wasn't third-hand stories, it was acquaintances) was: "3 days after I got the flu vaccine, I got the biggest flu of my life". Now I hear that in this new vascular disease.
There are no documents, there are no statistics, there is nothing, it is merely speculative. You can count a "case", you can put a link, that we will think about it. It could be people who would be sick without a vaccine and the vaccine just hadn't worked yet. It all depends on statistics, which we don't have in large quantities.
This phenomenon has, to my knowledge, no immunological explanation concensus yet. I'm still looking to see if I can find anything. I accept help.
I was able to find this Old document from 1932 regarding this issue "Negative Phase":
"The long-term modulation of innate immune responses has been an area of increased interest in the last years: multiple studies have shown that long-term innate immune responses can be either
increased (trained immunity) or down-regulated (innate immune tolerance) after certain
vaccines or infections (Netea et al., 2020)."(GECKIN et al 2021, p. 4)
"The induction of tolerance towards stimulation with TLR7/8 (R848) or TLR4 (LPS) ligands by BNT162b2 vaccination may indicate a more balanced inflammatory reaction during infection with SARS-CoV-2, and one could speculate whether such effect may be thus useful to regulate the potential over-inflammation in COVID-19, one of the main causes of death (Tang et al., 2020). On the other hand, inhibition of innate immune responses may diminish anti-viral responses. Type I interferons also play a central role in the pathogenesis and response against viral infections, including COVID-19 (Hadjadj et al., 2020). With this in mind, we also assessed the production of IFN-α by immune cells of the volunteers after vaccination. Although the concentrations of IFN-α were below the detection limit of the assay for most of the stimuli, we observed a significant reduction in the production if IFN-α secreted after stimulation with poly I:C and R848 after the administration of the second dose of the vaccine (Figure 1H, 1I). This may hamper the initial innate immune response against the virus, as defects in TLR7 have been shown to result in and increased susceptibility to COVID-19 in young males (Van Der Made et al., 2020)."(GECKIN et al 2021, p. 8-9)
"New studies also suggest that changes in DNA methylation patterns discriminate between ‘responders’ (people who are able to undergo trained immunity) and ‘non- responders’ to stimuli that induce trained immunity, such as BCG. In this regard, individuals who exhibit an enhanced containment of M. tuberculosisreplication after BCG vaccination displayed a wide loss of DNA methylation among promoters of genes belonging to immune pathways compared with individuals characterized as non-responders. A follow-up study identified 43 genes
with differential methylation patterns in BCG- naive responders compared with non- responders that could potentially be used as predictors of responsiveness to stimuli that induce trained immunity"(NETEA et al 2020, p. 381)
"It is possible that the augmented immune functions arising from trained immunity could lead to pathological tissue damage in certain situations. Trained immunity could, in part, explain the epidemiological link between infections and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. In addition to microbial products, endogenous triggers of innate immunity, including oxidized low- density
lipoprotein particles, lipoprotein (a), vimentin and highmobility group box 1 (HMGB1), can induce trained immunity"(NETEA et al 2020, p. 383)
"Trained immunity could potentially be important to ameliorate the consequences of immunosenescence, which is associated with the loss of adaptive immune system function. For example, prior BCG vaccination has been shown to enhance antibody responses to many other vaccines that are subsequently administered. On the other hand, there could be negative consequences. Neurodegenerative diseases constitute a significant group of age- related diseases associated with chronic inflammation. Peripheral application of Inflammatory stimuli in a mouse model of Alzheimer disease leads to long- lasting training of microglia, the brain-resident macrophages, which exacerbates cerebral β- amyloidosis. The functional changes of microglia are accompanied by activating epigenetic changes at the HIF1Agene locus, consistent with the peripheral trained immunity response. As a consequence of epigenetic reprogramming, microglia also show changes in transcription and protein expression. Even infections of mice very early in life as a means of immunological training seem to be able to contribute to the impairment of microglial function followed by amyloid- β-induced synapse damage and cognitive impairment. Together, these studies suggest that systemic inflammation induces microglia reprogramming, resulting in potentially hyper-responsive ‘trained’ states of the brain
Widespread, global Immunological consensus explanation would seem to me (non scientist) to be a bare minimum before any mandates or coercive measures or inducements or recommendations that low risk persons (more than 99% of population) especially children be injected with this material.
Indeed....Immunology should be discussed openly with the same vigor as we have seen in a regular basis with regards to Epidemiology and Stochastic Mathematical models.
Opa!....eu vi no seu comentário anterior que você queria fontes primárias sobre as outras plataformas vacinais (mRNA e Vetor Viral Recombinante, Inativado).....posso mandar para você a documentação que eu tenho me debruçado junto com uma imunologista da UFRJ.
assuming we have 2 man made interventions > 1 virus 2 vac.
which one has higher risk .. well 1 the virus is free, so you have some form of accountability (or at least an illusion) .. it basically can be 0 risk as you might never run into it, or be in a safe age/health status group that nears 0.. while the vac its a guaranteed risk. a decision clearly made to take that risk in order to prevent a much higher risk. there are contexts where both are justified , its not something to be resolved, but left to individual choice
NOW, of gathering information. VAERS is essential. our "biology" our "science" has been corrupted for way too long. i ran into this 7-10 years ago through low/carb keto / statins .
the only way people came out of that paradigm was through anecdotal evidence. sure vaers is a cold platform hard to validate (the competence or honesty or humanity of the actors).
but anecdotes are essential in a world of VAST UNKNOWN . people keep forgetting the side they dont know what they dont know
Call this an example of "anecdotitis". I take my lead from Graham Hutchinson and his remarks about how the spike proteins disrupt the angiotensin pathway. (I don't profess to understand biochemistry.) My partner, 62 yo male with no co-morbidities, took first dose of Moderna vax on May 3. (I advised him against it multiple times. He took it because he was told it was a requirement for him to travel to Brazil to see his family, and because his Brazilian passport had expired. On such trivial issues are tragedies made.) On May 19 he suffered a stroke, with carotid artery completely blocked. Doctors who operated on him suggested, based on no specific information, that he likely had pre-existing atherosclerosis. They admitted they had no baseline data with which to prove that. During the surgery, there was hemorrhagic conversion. He has retained some high level cognitive function, but seems to have lost emotional regulation, and has developed OCD. His brain seems to be running on a few repeated subroutines. He has almost no emotional affect, whereas he used to wear his heart on his sleeve. When I ask the nurses to report this case to VAERS, they act as if I am crazy. I don't know how you'd compute prior probabilities in a Bayesian calculation, but when someone in his early 60s who's never had a vascular event in his life, suddenly develops a life-threatening stroke 16 days after a Moderna vax... call it coincidence if you like.
I find it hard to accept the amount of coincidence we are being asked to accept post-vaccination. I practice anesthesiology in a large academic medical center. The anesthesiology department has served as our hospital’s COVID airway team (we are called for all intubations). In the past 4 weeks I have witnessed 3 otherwise healthy patients age 40-65 who suffered from thrombotic complications 5-15 days post Pfizer vaccination. The most recent case was a 43yo female with no past medical history who experienced progressive dyspnea following vaccination. She presented to the hospital on day 4 post-vax and was found to have bilateral near-occlusive pulmonary emboli. We were called to intubate her on day 5 post-vax because of progressive deterioration. At this point her right heart was significantly stressed and we were uncertain she would tolerate anesthesia induction agents needed to intubate so we called for emergent ECMO decannulation. She arrested minutes after our arrival and we were unable to resuscitate her due to the near complete obstruction of blood flow out of her right heart. The other two cases that I personally am aware of were both cardiac thromboses with subsequent myocardial infarction. In all three cases, the primary teams were in denial of vaccination as positive causative factor and assumed prior “undiagnosed” history of clotting disorder. The mental gymnastics is baffling to me.
I am so sorry about what happened to your partner. I took the J&J vaccine because I also need to go to Brazil... On Monday I am going to a doctor, since I am experiencing occasional headaches and I never ever had any headaches before.
they break down and get used up. it's a temporary process. the instructions penetrate cells, the cells code for and express proteins on their surface, and they are then killed by the immune system.
Vaccine efficacy is the percentage reduction of disease in a vaccinated group of people compared to an unvaccinated group, using the most favorable conditions.
How do they have high efficacy, let's say among children when the unvaccinated group is already at 99.997?
The reported efficacy as used by the pharmaceuticals is equivalent to relative risk reduction. Given that the risk of Covid in the population is already low, absolute risk reduction for the gene therapies is ~1%. BoriquaGato has written about this.
In Brazil they have the coronavac, which is the old technology "weakened virus", however I have more questions than answers. Why the "old technology"was not applied here or not even available? Why the vaccines in the US are all "spike based" with "new technologies" ? What's the difference between the J&J and the Pfizer Moderna (if anyone can share a good source i'd love to read).
I do think it is worth the investment in time to give his views a hearing given his background as Professor Emeritus at the University of Mainz and head of the Institute of Medical Microbiology and Hygiene.
clotting, myocarditis, etc are potential adverse effects of the disease. i presume you take the vaccine, it causes your cells to make spike protein as does the virus when it enters. you expose yourself to some of the effects of the virus, not replication, and not all. appears so far the vax exposes us to many effects of the virus.
are the prevalence and severity less than the chance of getting infection and being hard hit? that is the 'risk tolerance' analysis each person should look in to.
i have taken the moderna vax. i am over 70, a higher risk group. i have no comorbidity.
for me i bet the 100% exposure with mrna to be less risk than chancing the virus.
i have said under 60 and healthy think hard about the vax........
e.g. i buy megamillion tickets when it gets over $200m!
I think the concern following the results in the Harvard/Brigham paper is that they have shown that there is S1 in the plasma, i.e. not confined simply to expression on the surface of cells. When people have expressed concern about the vaccines in terms of "is spike by itself dangerous", the expert answer has been "the spike only appears partially extruded on a cell surface", i.e. it can't get to the lungs, the vascular epithelium, etc. The paper shows that is not correct, which in turn suggests we don't completely know all the downstream consequences.
The larger theoretical concern, in my view, with the mRNA vaccines is that the set of cells that can be "transfected" by the lipid nanoparticles (LPNs) is essentially all cells, in distinction to the SARS2 virus, which can only infect cells with ACE2 receptors. In other words, any cell that the LPNs reach can end up expressing spike on its surface, and thereby invite immune attack. So it matters very much that the belief is that this will be mainly local muscle, and next most-likely local lymph nodes. But we also know that with decreasing probability (per animal study) the LPNs reach essentially every organ including the brain and the bone marrow. The other thing I find interesting is that the kinds of adverse events that are beginning to emerge as related (I have more ideas about how to do that analysis better) are of the type and range you might expect if caused by comparatively uncommon but diverse instances of mRNA getting around: eg myocarditis (heart cells), thrombosis (vascular epithelium, platelets, perhaps bone marrow), various forms of neuritis (ocular, vestibular, peripheral) via nerve cells, and so on. To get a handle on the range of adverse effects you need to collate all of these, since they each present as a unique type of relatively rare event. But they do have in common the potential mechanism of targeted inflammation and/or cell damage that would be caused by spike expression in a particular cell type.
on your first point, i'm not clear why anyone would expect it to be confined to cell surfaces. that's where it expresses initially, but that then triggers immune response which in turn will kill sells and scatter proteins into plasma. how else could that wind up? so, unless i'm missing something, it seems to me that finding it in plasma would be something of a forgone conclusion.
the question then becomes how much is there, how harmful is it, and for how long? it seems like these concentrations are pretty low (again, unless i'm misinterpreting something). they also seem transient.
this does lead the "how harmful is S1 to various tissues" and "what tissues can it affect or penetrate"? these seem like open issues that need more work.
if i'm following your second point, now we're looking at S1 presentation in cells where immune attack can be particularly dangerous. can you cite some work to read on this?
it would make sense that these things could cause a wide array of complications and do so in hard to predict fashion and for hard to predict reasons. it would also be devilishly difficult to monitor and quantify as you'd essentially need to measure divergence from baseline to get anywhere and so you'd need HUGE datasets to catch rare outcomes.
seems like this could take years to understand and require actual RCT which seems like it's already too late for. i'm not even sure you could get to this meaningfully via retrospective.
With respect to your first points I agree: we would expect spike antigen in the plasma, and the question is how much and is it harmful (it is also true though that this likelihood was downplayed.) I also suspect that the danger coming from this effect is pretty low, with one caveat. The amount of S1 is presumably dose-related, and the dose selected for Pfizer and Moderna was designed to produce sufficient antibody response in older people. The EUA for ages 12-15 did not involve any stepped down dose, and the antibody titers produced were 4-fold higher than 20 year olds, which are in turn several fold higher than the average in the trials. I believe the dose is too high for kids, and maybe too high for women and other subpopulations. Also with respect to harms from just free S1, there is this paper describing how It can cause "thrombosis, inflammation, and pulmonary damage", so there is theoretically an issue.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7772528/
Re the likely more important issue of where the mRNA goes and which cells are therefore targeted by the immune system -- best discussion of this is in the comments section of the article below. Scroll to first comment by Dr. Ulm; what follows is a very informed and reasonable back and forth with a lot of technical detail by people who seem to know what they are talking about. Very worth reading:
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/11/rna-vaccines-and-their-lipids
With respect to how to discover these kinds of adverse effects, I think this can be done. I have an idea for how to find significance in VAERS, which of course is difficult: we have the atypical circumstance that we have several vaccines released at basically the same time, and being taken up essentially randomly (not completely of course) by the US population. The idea is to use one vaccine as a control against the others. If events are occurring without causation, then they should occur at the same relative frequency for each vaccine (modulo a few things like age or gender distribution for different vaccines, but this can be controlled by narrowing the age range, single gender, etc.) I've done a few simple analyses like this (eg picking say 5 adverse events, and comparing relative frequency across vaccines). There is strong evidence that myocarditis is connected to both mRNAs, but not to J&J: the "vectors" of relative frequency should be parallel if it's all background events, but Pfizer and Moderna have much stronger components in "myocarditis". I am planning to try to do a much more systematic analysis on the full data set, and see what adverse events are differentially represented.
i like your idea of cross vax control as a way to measure the mRNA tissue infection issues as it would seem to control for generalized immune response vs specific tissue issues. it does leave the lingering question of "is the VAERS database actually any good?" i've heard multiple takes on this, but several people i believe to be well informed feel that it's missing many AE's because it (AT BEST) does not know what to look for because the tissue issues from mRNA could crop up anywhere or (AT WORST) it's being deliberately under/non-reported because docs don't want to really count AE's, nor does the government or the drug companies. initial trials were too small to find low incidence outcomes in hard to predict places.
i'm really not sure we're working with a great dataset here and if we are not, it's going to stymie analysis.
I was thinking a bit further about the Brigham/Harvard study and their finding (maybe very low amounts) S1 in the plasma: see slides at the link below from a UofW presentation re how the mRNAs work. This is not my technical specialty, but if the mechanism we are presuming for S1 in plasma is just breakdown by immune attack of cells that received mRNA lpns, it is a bit surprising to find intact S1. The graphic re Pfizer/Moderna action shows how chopped up antigens from the spike are presented outside the cell in MHCs, and also the spike itself. It should be note though that this is "stabilized spike", modified from origin spike to not be cleaved at the (famous) furin cleavage site (because if it were we would not see full spike exterior to the cell, it would be cleaved inside the cell.) Modulo not knowing the full details of the assays used in the study, it seems surprising that S1, as opposed to just chopped up bits of spike, is detectable in plasma. An alternative mechanism is that cells in blood and/or bone marrow are receiving mRNA lpns and presenting spike (I admit I'm not sure why more full S is not seen then), which if true would support the theory that mRNA lpns might be getting around more than we though. I think it's worth chasing down what mechanisms would produce the results they found.
i received my second moderna shot on 7 May at a US military clinic. they created a paper and tagged it with a stick on with lot number and 3 ml or 5 ml. Mine was checked for 5 ml being over 70. i suspect from that there are two doses more for older as in flu vax...
generally if you get a vax you r exposed the subject to some or all bad things the virus and immune respond do.
is vax risk worse than chancing getting the virus and that choice result?
The timing makes sense. The risk of thrombosis drops off after about 20 days post vaccination.
corona virus infections are [hopefully at low prevalence] linked to some long term central nervous system "problems". ethical skeptic linked to a study a few months ago on lewey body and plaques in lab mice brains.....
as in any long term issue it may be the virus/protein or it may be the immune response...
cns issues another variable, for risk analysis......
my answer was 'over 70, not that long to live with the lower than the disease lt sides".....
All of this jives with my casual exploration of the data. The vaccine seems quite safe for most in the short term. For those with significant risk factors for poor Covid outcomes, the vaccine seems a very reasonable option. The question of both long-term efficacy and long-term negative effects is still in question, particularly for those cohorts excluded from the initial trials, i.e. the young, pregnant women, those who have had Covid, etc.
It is truly remarkable that we were able to develop this vaccine so quickly and that it appears to have such a high level of efficacy. It is however unconscionable that governments, public health officials, businesses and schools would advise those with low risks or (and more disturbingly) compel *anyone,* regardless of their risk profile, to accept what is still a very new bit of technology.
mrna research has been ongoing. moderna went on contract with darpa in 2013. broader study is area called pandemic prevention platform. bio warfare pharma response. get big pharma in to the pentagon gravy train! moderna vax is better than tang!
mrna for tailored cancer has been studied for quite some time. feature is once you characterize the mRNA you want to emulate t is relatively quick. the idea for cancer is get mRNA to enter tumor, display a protein on surface and white blood cells respond to exposed cells.
Thanks for this, gato!
Are the vaccine-encoded spike proteins capable of causing injury? That's the question. Would that we had the answer before hundreds of millions were injected.
There are 4,201 deaths and thousands of reports of serious injury following Covid19 "vaccines" in the VAERS. That's more deaths reported than for all other vaccines combined going back fifteen years. Yes, some are unrelated. But all of them? There are fifteen and sixteen-year-olds who died of cardiac arrest. Other reports of teens with rare blood clots in the brain from both the viral vector vaccines and mRNA vaccines. The data in EudraVigilance is even worse.
Did the vaccine-encoded spike protein cause of these injuries and deaths? Who knows? They won't even admit there's a problem.
The public health "experts" have been pushing these experimental "vaccines" on pregnant women and those with prior infection, even though both groups were excluded from the trials. They are pushing the "vaccines" for children who have almost no risk of serious disease with infection. Over a hundred colleges and universities are now mandating a "vaccine" as a condition of attendance for a virus that poses very low risk to most students. None of this makes sense. The virus simply doesn't justify the risk of the vaccine for these people. So, why are they doing this?
Moreover, the EUAs for all of these "vaccines" do not claim to prevent infection or transmission of the virus. They only claim to mitigate symptoms with infection. There have been several thousand breakthrough infections recorded in "fully vaccinated" people. Over a thousand were hospitalized and about 225 have died. A couple weeks ago, the CDC lowered the PCR cycle threshold to 28 for the "fully vaccinated". Shortly thereafter, they announced they would only report hospitalizations and deaths for breakthrough infections. If the news was good, would they do this?
A week or so ago, Walensky told the talking heads on cable that "fully vaccinated" people with mild or asymptomatic infection have small amounts of virus in their systems and do not present a risk. Wait...isn't that the reason the world shut down? Didn't you tell us that people with asymptomatic infection are modern day Typhoid Marys? Even the sheep saw the flaw in the narrative, so she and Leana Wen tried to claim that mild or asymptomatic infection in the "fully vaccinated" was somehow different than it is in the unvaccinated. I'm sorry...wut? How? Because we said so isn't gonna cut it.
I've also heard stories of asymptomatic transmission from "fully vaccinated" people to others, but I haven't explored it yet. I'm not convinced these "vaccines" are as good as advertised. Some (Vanden Bossche and Montagnier) are concerned that mass vaccination with a leaky "vaccine" during a pandemic will create more dangerous variants. Others are concerned for antibody enhanced disease in the fall/winter, which they fear will be used to push boosters.
The Salk just determined that the wild spike protein is the likely cause of the cardiovascular injuries seen in some. Clearly, whatever changes pharma made to nerf the spike didn't factor this concern. If they weakened the ability of the spike to injure, it was an accident.
Someone needs to study the effect of vaccine-encoded spike protein on endothelial cells...soon.
I always wanted to commit the madness of talking about a phenomenon not documented in Immunology, but widely commented by popular people.
When the flu vaccine started, what I heard most from acquaintances (see, it wasn't third-hand stories, it was acquaintances) was: "3 days after I got the flu vaccine, I got the biggest flu of my life". Now I hear that in this new vascular disease.
There are no documents, there are no statistics, there is nothing, it is merely speculative. You can count a "case", you can put a link, that we will think about it. It could be people who would be sick without a vaccine and the vaccine just hadn't worked yet. It all depends on statistics, which we don't have in large quantities.
This phenomenon has, to my knowledge, no immunological explanation concensus yet. I'm still looking to see if I can find anything. I accept help.
I was able to find this Old document from 1932 regarding this issue "Negative Phase":
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5231634/pdf/indmedgaz72178-0035b.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1EXs3CPS9N_e9uD-zjlkT4tja1rBvNU9F6uYkImg-eJDr52pEIZepquGQ
I also found this Large Scandinavian observational study -
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21254636v1
In Sweden, 2 highlights of a Pfizer vaccination campaign:
- Take extra care within 2 weeks after the first injection
- The previous infection offers a solid defense
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2021/04/21/2021.04.20.21254636/T2.medium.gif
Also this one -
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/351378629_The_BNT162b2_mRNA_vaccine_against_SARS-CoV-2_reprograms_both_adaptive_and_innate_immune_responses
"The long-term modulation of innate immune responses has been an area of increased interest in the last years: multiple studies have shown that long-term innate immune responses can be either
increased (trained immunity) or down-regulated (innate immune tolerance) after certain
vaccines or infections (Netea et al., 2020)."(GECKIN et al 2021, p. 4)
"The induction of tolerance towards stimulation with TLR7/8 (R848) or TLR4 (LPS) ligands by BNT162b2 vaccination may indicate a more balanced inflammatory reaction during infection with SARS-CoV-2, and one could speculate whether such effect may be thus useful to regulate the potential over-inflammation in COVID-19, one of the main causes of death (Tang et al., 2020). On the other hand, inhibition of innate immune responses may diminish anti-viral responses. Type I interferons also play a central role in the pathogenesis and response against viral infections, including COVID-19 (Hadjadj et al., 2020). With this in mind, we also assessed the production of IFN-α by immune cells of the volunteers after vaccination. Although the concentrations of IFN-α were below the detection limit of the assay for most of the stimuli, we observed a significant reduction in the production if IFN-α secreted after stimulation with poly I:C and R848 after the administration of the second dose of the vaccine (Figure 1H, 1I). This may hamper the initial innate immune response against the virus, as defects in TLR7 have been shown to result in and increased susceptibility to COVID-19 in young males (Van Der Made et al., 2020)."(GECKIN et al 2021, p. 8-9)
And finally this one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0285-6
"New studies also suggest that changes in DNA methylation patterns discriminate between ‘responders’ (people who are able to undergo trained immunity) and ‘non- responders’ to stimuli that induce trained immunity, such as BCG. In this regard, individuals who exhibit an enhanced containment of M. tuberculosisreplication after BCG vaccination displayed a wide loss of DNA methylation among promoters of genes belonging to immune pathways compared with individuals characterized as non-responders. A follow-up study identified 43 genes
with differential methylation patterns in BCG- naive responders compared with non- responders that could potentially be used as predictors of responsiveness to stimuli that induce trained immunity"(NETEA et al 2020, p. 381)
"It is possible that the augmented immune functions arising from trained immunity could lead to pathological tissue damage in certain situations. Trained immunity could, in part, explain the epidemiological link between infections and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. In addition to microbial products, endogenous triggers of innate immunity, including oxidized low- density
lipoprotein particles, lipoprotein (a), vimentin and highmobility group box 1 (HMGB1), can induce trained immunity"(NETEA et al 2020, p. 383)
"Trained immunity could potentially be important to ameliorate the consequences of immunosenescence, which is associated with the loss of adaptive immune system function. For example, prior BCG vaccination has been shown to enhance antibody responses to many other vaccines that are subsequently administered. On the other hand, there could be negative consequences. Neurodegenerative diseases constitute a significant group of age- related diseases associated with chronic inflammation. Peripheral application of Inflammatory stimuli in a mouse model of Alzheimer disease leads to long- lasting training of microglia, the brain-resident macrophages, which exacerbates cerebral β- amyloidosis. The functional changes of microglia are accompanied by activating epigenetic changes at the HIF1Agene locus, consistent with the peripheral trained immunity response. As a consequence of epigenetic reprogramming, microglia also show changes in transcription and protein expression. Even infections of mice very early in life as a means of immunological training seem to be able to contribute to the impairment of microglial function followed by amyloid- β-induced synapse damage and cognitive impairment. Together, these studies suggest that systemic inflammation induces microglia reprogramming, resulting in potentially hyper-responsive ‘trained’ states of the brain
immune system."(NETEA et al 2020, p. 384)
Best regards,
Gabriel Demarchi Filler
Widespread, global Immunological consensus explanation would seem to me (non scientist) to be a bare minimum before any mandates or coercive measures or inducements or recommendations that low risk persons (more than 99% of population) especially children be injected with this material.
Indeed....Immunology should be discussed openly with the same vigor as we have seen in a regular basis with regards to Epidemiology and Stochastic Mathematical models.
Gabriel not sure where you got your education, but it seems that your alma matter was a good one, where did you study ? (if you don't mind sharing?)
I was graduated as an undergraduate in History by Sao Paulo State University (UNESP)
Outro Brasileiro! que bom! gostei da análise!
Opa!....eu vi no seu comentário anterior que você queria fontes primárias sobre as outras plataformas vacinais (mRNA e Vetor Viral Recombinante, Inativado).....posso mandar para você a documentação que eu tenho me debruçado junto com uma imunologista da UFRJ.
assuming we have 2 man made interventions > 1 virus 2 vac.
which one has higher risk .. well 1 the virus is free, so you have some form of accountability (or at least an illusion) .. it basically can be 0 risk as you might never run into it, or be in a safe age/health status group that nears 0.. while the vac its a guaranteed risk. a decision clearly made to take that risk in order to prevent a much higher risk. there are contexts where both are justified , its not something to be resolved, but left to individual choice
NOW, of gathering information. VAERS is essential. our "biology" our "science" has been corrupted for way too long. i ran into this 7-10 years ago through low/carb keto / statins .
the only way people came out of that paradigm was through anecdotal evidence. sure vaers is a cold platform hard to validate (the competence or honesty or humanity of the actors).
but anecdotes are essential in a world of VAST UNKNOWN . people keep forgetting the side they dont know what they dont know
Call this an example of "anecdotitis". I take my lead from Graham Hutchinson and his remarks about how the spike proteins disrupt the angiotensin pathway. (I don't profess to understand biochemistry.) My partner, 62 yo male with no co-morbidities, took first dose of Moderna vax on May 3. (I advised him against it multiple times. He took it because he was told it was a requirement for him to travel to Brazil to see his family, and because his Brazilian passport had expired. On such trivial issues are tragedies made.) On May 19 he suffered a stroke, with carotid artery completely blocked. Doctors who operated on him suggested, based on no specific information, that he likely had pre-existing atherosclerosis. They admitted they had no baseline data with which to prove that. During the surgery, there was hemorrhagic conversion. He has retained some high level cognitive function, but seems to have lost emotional regulation, and has developed OCD. His brain seems to be running on a few repeated subroutines. He has almost no emotional affect, whereas he used to wear his heart on his sleeve. When I ask the nurses to report this case to VAERS, they act as if I am crazy. I don't know how you'd compute prior probabilities in a Bayesian calculation, but when someone in his early 60s who's never had a vascular event in his life, suddenly develops a life-threatening stroke 16 days after a Moderna vax... call it coincidence if you like.
I find it hard to accept the amount of coincidence we are being asked to accept post-vaccination. I practice anesthesiology in a large academic medical center. The anesthesiology department has served as our hospital’s COVID airway team (we are called for all intubations). In the past 4 weeks I have witnessed 3 otherwise healthy patients age 40-65 who suffered from thrombotic complications 5-15 days post Pfizer vaccination. The most recent case was a 43yo female with no past medical history who experienced progressive dyspnea following vaccination. She presented to the hospital on day 4 post-vax and was found to have bilateral near-occlusive pulmonary emboli. We were called to intubate her on day 5 post-vax because of progressive deterioration. At this point her right heart was significantly stressed and we were uncertain she would tolerate anesthesia induction agents needed to intubate so we called for emergent ECMO decannulation. She arrested minutes after our arrival and we were unable to resuscitate her due to the near complete obstruction of blood flow out of her right heart. The other two cases that I personally am aware of were both cardiac thromboses with subsequent myocardial infarction. In all three cases, the primary teams were in denial of vaccination as positive causative factor and assumed prior “undiagnosed” history of clotting disorder. The mental gymnastics is baffling to me.
I am so sorry about what happened to your partner. I took the J&J vaccine because I also need to go to Brazil... On Monday I am going to a doctor, since I am experiencing occasional headaches and I never ever had any headaches before.
What happens to the mRNA instructions? Do they get despatched/disposed by the body? Could they continue in perpuity causing S generation?
they break down and get used up. it's a temporary process. the instructions penetrate cells, the cells code for and express proteins on their surface, and they are then killed by the immune system.
What happens to the mRNA instructions? Do they get despatched/disposed by the body? Could they continue in perpuity causing S generation?
Thank you for that. I like the balance of your analysis.
"the HIGH EFFICACY of vaccines."
Vaccine efficacy is the percentage reduction of disease in a vaccinated group of people compared to an unvaccinated group, using the most favorable conditions.
How do they have high efficacy, let's say among children when the unvaccinated group is already at 99.997?
The reported efficacy as used by the pharmaceuticals is equivalent to relative risk reduction. Given that the risk of Covid in the population is already low, absolute risk reduction for the gene therapies is ~1%. BoriquaGato has written about this.
Yea, that's a very narrow way of looking at efficacy. This vid explains more. https://www.bitchute.com/video/la67ntKMqpyS/
In Brazil they have the coronavac, which is the old technology "weakened virus", however I have more questions than answers. Why the "old technology"was not applied here or not even available? Why the vaccines in the US are all "spike based" with "new technologies" ? What's the difference between the J&J and the Pfizer Moderna (if anyone can share a good source i'd love to read).
el gato malo thanks for deep dive, i did not go past the link on twitter.
note pfizer, jnj and azn do the same thing, slight different protein output.
azn and jnj use a dna vector on a 'safe' virus unlike pfizer and moderna who just send in the mrna on a nanoparticle?.
all 4 work to get cells to make protein
there is some work on a deplete virus vaccine as well as other ways
one neat thing about mrna, once you identify the protein an mrna can be "cooked up".
Excellent summary. Thanks!
Thought people might be interested in this interview with Stephanie Seneff, Ph.D., on the risks of neurological disease with the C19 "vaccines".
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/05/23/stephanie-seneff-covid-vaccine.aspx?ui=4a17d3b6fe408c57d13de9a0d009593c7e0a7f317f011c5beeddb1d6c9d7b16e&sd=20210405&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20210523_HL2&mid=DM891901&rid=1165116521
How do the findings of the study correlate with the concerns expressed by Professor Sucharit Bhakdi?
https://youtu.be/pyPjAfNNA-U
i dilike long form youtube content as a way to get info. it just takes forever to get through.
can you summarize?
I do think it is worth the investment in time to give his views a hearing given his background as Professor Emeritus at the University of Mainz and head of the Institute of Medical Microbiology and Hygiene.
It takes too long to summarize. :)
Yeah, if you read it with any comprehension, surely you can pop of a sentence or two as to the general direction of it.
What about other potential adverse properties/effects of the vaccines ... such as blood clot or myocarditis?
clotting, myocarditis, etc are potential adverse effects of the disease. i presume you take the vaccine, it causes your cells to make spike protein as does the virus when it enters. you expose yourself to some of the effects of the virus, not replication, and not all. appears so far the vax exposes us to many effects of the virus.
are the prevalence and severity less than the chance of getting infection and being hard hit? that is the 'risk tolerance' analysis each person should look in to.
i have taken the moderna vax. i am over 70, a higher risk group. i have no comorbidity.
for me i bet the 100% exposure with mrna to be less risk than chancing the virus.
i have said under 60 and healthy think hard about the vax........
e.g. i buy megamillion tickets when it gets over $200m!