I would submit that is true for more of us, than not. It also seems to me that more than a few of us always wanted to be part of the 'in' crowd or 'cool kids' at some point in our lives, as they were never really comfortable being an outsider – I came to love being an outsider, and like you, developed an immunity to 'group think.'
I have been searching for some common thread among those who resisted, and haven't been able to find a single one. I believe that faith helps, but our denomination refused to support religious exemptions, and all my friends from church posted their vaccine cards to Facebook. The out-of-step culturally didn't do all that well, either. I got a lot of *tolerance* out of my community, genuinely, but we still referred to ourselves as the danger-kittens because everyone we knew thought we were crazy.
For me, it's "having been screwed before," which helped me. I already didn't trust docs and pharma because of the harm that was done to me. In 2010 I took a personal oath to not take any drug which was younger than 10 years old, and preferably 20. To survive what I did - yes, faith is a requirement (as is self-care).
However - like with your church - most of the medical survivors in my forums took the juice, and the official narrative was widely accepted (and discussion of the juice was banned). EVEN THOUGH they had been harmed by other juices...
It was easier than fighting that dominant narrative.
How many people do you know who are confrontation-avoidant? Nearly every man in my life would sooner lie and agree with me, than disagree and risk a confrontation (the one who wouldn't was a narcissist!). It was their nature - and I had to learn to look for signs that this was "compliance" not "agreement." Extend this out to society as a whole, and most people would not tell you there was shit on your face, because - well, that's confronting.
It is easier to go along. It is easier to do what you are told. It is easier to trust what doc is saying, even when it harms you.
I know a person who was a kind of hippie artsy person in Los Angeles. She had been an anti-vaxxer for years and had home schooled her two daughters and not given them any vaccines at all. She sat at a party talking about how she had always been an anti-vaxxer until Covid but she now realizes how important and necessary these vaccines are and she is totally on board with making sure that everyone is vaccinated. So pro mandate in other words. This was in 2021. My eyes were just popping out of my head - I cannot fathom how someone could think like that and not see their own inconsistencies and even boast about it at a party. Not sure whether she has modified her views yet and gone back to anti-vaxxer beliefs - or maybe she has run out and got all the MMR and DPT vaccines she missed.
Everyone is susceptible. I thought I was a strong, smart woman. I escaped a dire marriage before it got terrible. And immediately fell into the seductive arms of a narcissist.
It can happen to anyone. If I were to hazard a guess about a stranger I know nothing about - her hippie lifestyle may have left her vulnerable to the heavy propaganda. Eyes wide open, she took the bait.
I have a dear artist friend I've been afraid to ask. I hate to think of her as a cyborg.
You poor darling! You are RIGHT, it could happen to anyone and those who think they would never be in a relationship like that are fooling themselves……
But your experience validates what I read in 2021 (see my extended comment below), that those who saw through the propaganda early on, had major impactful experiences with gaslighting.
Probably far too frequently, my propensity has been just the opposite. I'll TELL myself that I'm not actively seeking confrontation, but then I realise that I'm lying to myself.
I'm surprised that I was not kicked out of Target, during that time...
I appreciate your reply and all those below. I suppose it remains a mystery to a large extent. I agree with you regarding faith: my faith really did help me stay resolute (at one point I questioned my refusal) but most of the people at the 2 churches I attend took the juice and were so proud of it.
It's a good point t, I've been doing it too. Searching that is. I really have not found faith a good reliable tell. There are probably multiple reasons, which is why it is difficult. My best friend of 50 years was on the same page, I am grateful for that!
Also, having parents that model that helps. My parents were very successful at going their own way while generally being accepted by the in crowd. The lesson in that made me that way too.
I also wondered how my husband and I saw it right away (by end of April/beginning of May), especially because originally we were “all in” and took our daughter out of school 2 weeks before the lockdown based on what we were seeing abroad. I also originally thought it was a discernment by faith thing. That is, until our entire bible church went cancel all worship-crazy, mask-crazy, asked EVERONE when their vax appointment was (I asked one guy if he would like to know the results of my last Pap smear as well-that was FUN), and posted lots of social media posts of their virtuous children, “doing their part”-that part really broke my heart, because by then there was sooo much information available that showed what a bad idea it was to vax your very own children. I was so bewildered and dismayed by how many people I previously respected that were utterly duped. Then there was an entire OTHER group of friends that could see that we were all being manipulated, but got the vax (and for their kids) based on a desire to travel, go to a movie, eat out, or their kids to play sports. I was so shocked that they could fold so easily! We didn’t eat out or see a movie for 2 years! My daughter quit ballet and karate-there was no way we were doing the vax! I felt so depressed, confused, frankly……crazy. I spent HOURS trying to figure out why people weren’t seeing it, and trying to convince others and our local school board with data-(at great social pressure/risk-everyone here is as progressive as they come). Now I understand that “data” and rational thought had no chance for success—-their belief system was sort of ……“tribal”?
And finally…….you can not imagine the relief I felt when I came across an article in 2021, where a researcher in the field of psychology….
….REPORTED THAT 90% OF THE PEOPLE HE SAMPLED WHO “GOT IT” EARLY, EXPERIENCED A CHILDHOOD THAT WAS MARKED BY GASLIGHTING…..
……(Which he explained often happens in families with addiction present, a narcissist parent, or emotional neglect). And while my husband and I are both advanced degree holders, and very affluent (another marker of those who are highly vaxxed), I believe it was the fact that we both grew up in dysfunctional families—gaslit to the max —that saved us……
I think the reasons we saw through it all are varied and complex. My faith was a big part of it for me but for others, they listened to the advice of the Vatican and felt they were 'doing their part', i.e., it made them feel noble and selfless. A deacon at my church fell into this category. Sadly, his son, in his 30's just recently died of a stroke - otherwise healthy, fit and active. I don't know for a fact that he was vaxxed but he traveled a fair bit between Canada and the US so that and what I knew of his family tells me he was.
I was fortunate enough to be pointed to a podcast where a Franciscan Monk, in a respectful manner criticized the church for meddling in medicine saying that the aim of the church was saving souls not giving medical advice. He made other excellent points as well and he's one of the reasons I stayed vaxx free.
I too bought into the narrative at the very beginning but began to see more clearly by about April/May of 2020.
I'm used to doing medical research even before the internet due to some prior illnesses being misdiagnosed or complex and difficult to diagnose. Libraries and card catalogues existed long before Dr. Google.
I've often wondered why I and some others saw through all the BS but others did not.
Looking back to my childhood, I was never part of the 'cool kids' group and never really cared about that. I had friends and was fairly happy.
I think this made a difference. People like me sort of became immune to 'group think' and go-along-to-get-along.
I also think that having a strong faith life makes a huge difference.
I would submit that is true for more of us, than not. It also seems to me that more than a few of us always wanted to be part of the 'in' crowd or 'cool kids' at some point in our lives, as they were never really comfortable being an outsider – I came to love being an outsider, and like you, developed an immunity to 'group think.'
I have been searching for some common thread among those who resisted, and haven't been able to find a single one. I believe that faith helps, but our denomination refused to support religious exemptions, and all my friends from church posted their vaccine cards to Facebook. The out-of-step culturally didn't do all that well, either. I got a lot of *tolerance* out of my community, genuinely, but we still referred to ourselves as the danger-kittens because everyone we knew thought we were crazy.
For me, it's "having been screwed before," which helped me. I already didn't trust docs and pharma because of the harm that was done to me. In 2010 I took a personal oath to not take any drug which was younger than 10 years old, and preferably 20. To survive what I did - yes, faith is a requirement (as is self-care).
However - like with your church - most of the medical survivors in my forums took the juice, and the official narrative was widely accepted (and discussion of the juice was banned). EVEN THOUGH they had been harmed by other juices...
It was easier than fighting that dominant narrative.
How many people do you know who are confrontation-avoidant? Nearly every man in my life would sooner lie and agree with me, than disagree and risk a confrontation (the one who wouldn't was a narcissist!). It was their nature - and I had to learn to look for signs that this was "compliance" not "agreement." Extend this out to society as a whole, and most people would not tell you there was shit on your face, because - well, that's confronting.
It is easier to go along. It is easier to do what you are told. It is easier to trust what doc is saying, even when it harms you.
I know a person who was a kind of hippie artsy person in Los Angeles. She had been an anti-vaxxer for years and had home schooled her two daughters and not given them any vaccines at all. She sat at a party talking about how she had always been an anti-vaxxer until Covid but she now realizes how important and necessary these vaccines are and she is totally on board with making sure that everyone is vaccinated. So pro mandate in other words. This was in 2021. My eyes were just popping out of my head - I cannot fathom how someone could think like that and not see their own inconsistencies and even boast about it at a party. Not sure whether she has modified her views yet and gone back to anti-vaxxer beliefs - or maybe she has run out and got all the MMR and DPT vaccines she missed.
Everyone is susceptible. I thought I was a strong, smart woman. I escaped a dire marriage before it got terrible. And immediately fell into the seductive arms of a narcissist.
It can happen to anyone. If I were to hazard a guess about a stranger I know nothing about - her hippie lifestyle may have left her vulnerable to the heavy propaganda. Eyes wide open, she took the bait.
I have a dear artist friend I've been afraid to ask. I hate to think of her as a cyborg.
You poor darling! You are RIGHT, it could happen to anyone and those who think they would never be in a relationship like that are fooling themselves……
But your experience validates what I read in 2021 (see my extended comment below), that those who saw through the propaganda early on, had major impactful experiences with gaslighting.
Probably far too frequently, my propensity has been just the opposite. I'll TELL myself that I'm not actively seeking confrontation, but then I realise that I'm lying to myself.
I'm surprised that I was not kicked out of Target, during that time...
:D :D :D
I appreciate your reply and all those below. I suppose it remains a mystery to a large extent. I agree with you regarding faith: my faith really did help me stay resolute (at one point I questioned my refusal) but most of the people at the 2 churches I attend took the juice and were so proud of it.
It's a good point t, I've been doing it too. Searching that is. I really have not found faith a good reliable tell. There are probably multiple reasons, which is why it is difficult. My best friend of 50 years was on the same page, I am grateful for that!
Also, having parents that model that helps. My parents were very successful at going their own way while generally being accepted by the in crowd. The lesson in that made me that way too.
same for me.
Faith is the key.
I also wondered how my husband and I saw it right away (by end of April/beginning of May), especially because originally we were “all in” and took our daughter out of school 2 weeks before the lockdown based on what we were seeing abroad. I also originally thought it was a discernment by faith thing. That is, until our entire bible church went cancel all worship-crazy, mask-crazy, asked EVERONE when their vax appointment was (I asked one guy if he would like to know the results of my last Pap smear as well-that was FUN), and posted lots of social media posts of their virtuous children, “doing their part”-that part really broke my heart, because by then there was sooo much information available that showed what a bad idea it was to vax your very own children. I was so bewildered and dismayed by how many people I previously respected that were utterly duped. Then there was an entire OTHER group of friends that could see that we were all being manipulated, but got the vax (and for their kids) based on a desire to travel, go to a movie, eat out, or their kids to play sports. I was so shocked that they could fold so easily! We didn’t eat out or see a movie for 2 years! My daughter quit ballet and karate-there was no way we were doing the vax! I felt so depressed, confused, frankly……crazy. I spent HOURS trying to figure out why people weren’t seeing it, and trying to convince others and our local school board with data-(at great social pressure/risk-everyone here is as progressive as they come). Now I understand that “data” and rational thought had no chance for success—-their belief system was sort of ……“tribal”?
And finally…….you can not imagine the relief I felt when I came across an article in 2021, where a researcher in the field of psychology….
….REPORTED THAT 90% OF THE PEOPLE HE SAMPLED WHO “GOT IT” EARLY, EXPERIENCED A CHILDHOOD THAT WAS MARKED BY GASLIGHTING…..
……(Which he explained often happens in families with addiction present, a narcissist parent, or emotional neglect). And while my husband and I are both advanced degree holders, and very affluent (another marker of those who are highly vaxxed), I believe it was the fact that we both grew up in dysfunctional families—gaslit to the max —that saved us……
I think the reasons we saw through it all are varied and complex. My faith was a big part of it for me but for others, they listened to the advice of the Vatican and felt they were 'doing their part', i.e., it made them feel noble and selfless. A deacon at my church fell into this category. Sadly, his son, in his 30's just recently died of a stroke - otherwise healthy, fit and active. I don't know for a fact that he was vaxxed but he traveled a fair bit between Canada and the US so that and what I knew of his family tells me he was.
I was fortunate enough to be pointed to a podcast where a Franciscan Monk, in a respectful manner criticized the church for meddling in medicine saying that the aim of the church was saving souls not giving medical advice. He made other excellent points as well and he's one of the reasons I stayed vaxx free.
I too bought into the narrative at the very beginning but began to see more clearly by about April/May of 2020.
I'm used to doing medical research even before the internet due to some prior illnesses being misdiagnosed or complex and difficult to diagnose. Libraries and card catalogues existed long before Dr. Google.