Have you considered possibility that you have been immersed in anti Soviet propaganda? Entertain this thought. I was able to free myself from anti American propaganda, though I see where it is coming from. I am tired of people who judge how life was by the news, fake celebrities and academics who write books being afraid to step out of l…
Have you considered possibility that you have been immersed in anti Soviet propaganda? Entertain this thought. I was able to free myself from anti American propaganda, though I see where it is coming from. I am tired of people who judge how life was by the news, fake celebrities and academics who write books being afraid to step out of line or to get social approval. Yes, life in Soviet Union wasn't perfect, but is it in America? Soviet Union collapsed because people got too comfortable with their lives. Same thing, in my opinion, is happening in America nowadays. A lot of Americans don't know (or realize) hardships that previous generations went through and are now spitting on their graves. That's how it was in USSR before collapse. I don't know what will be USA's fate, but I share deeply it's values of freedom. They do not work exactly like they are advertised, but at least that's an ideal for which people can strive for and many countries should take example from them. I won't be silent though when people are spitting on the country I was born in. It wasn't perfect, but I see a lot of outrageous lies which aren't supported a) by my experience, b) by statistics, c) by historical documents.
I always consider the possibility that whatever information I examine is propaganda of one flavor or another :-) And yes, I am more than fully aware of American propaganda, which honestly is embarrassingly transparent and rather easy to spot, as is most all propaganda once you know the telltale markers.
I would say 98% of my understanding of Soviet life, history, tyranny, and crimes against humanity comes directly from Russian sources—dozens of books by dozens of different authors, direct testimonies from people who experienced or witnessed the suffering themselves, scientific evidence of mass graves, and government officials like ex-Soviet spies.
I would never spit on Russia as I have tremendous respect for the people of your country, and I am a zealous fan of Russian literature. It is the despotic, oppressive government of the Bolshevik Revolution and USSR I condemn, just as I condemn every other totalitarian regime around the world throughout history.
Without understanding Russian Civil War it's not possible to comprehend what was happening there. Russian Revolution happened because previous government became incapable of anything and there were multiple parties involved in letting it go. Multiple foreign armies entered Russian territories during this time on the sides opposing Bolsheviks. And not for their love for Russian people, quite the opposite. During Civil War many millions died and left a lot of scars in society. I believe numerous individual tragedies resulted from it, but it was no genocide. Civil War hasn't ended in 1922/23, it's not that Civil War ended and everyone was holding hands and singing happy songs. Excesses have been punished (responsible for purge of 1937/38 and his proteges didn't live long). But hey, it's just a substack comment, I can only give hints. If you are not too invested in the narrative may be you can open your mind to another explanation of these sufferings?
I understand Russian Civil War—I read “Dr. Zhivago” 😁 Just kidding, I know it’s far more complex than what’s presented as a backdrop to the personal drama of that novel, and while I have read numerous texts on the topic, I do realize my understanding of it remains at a surface level.
It makes perfect sense that foreign armies entered the bloodbath to take advantage of the power destabilization for their own aims, and the Civil War was undoubtedly a brutal experience that left open wounds for decades afterward.
I cannot, however, concede that Stalin was a benevolent figure who did not intentionally subject millions of his own citizens to starvation, torture, imprisonment, and massacre, and the concrete evidence, testimonies, and witnesses (both victims and perpetrators) to these atrocities support these claims—Solzhenitsyn’s works or not. The Soviet state fostered a totalitarian atmosphere of oppression, censorship, and punishment for anyone brave enough to counter the narrative, resulting in catastrophic situations like Chernobyl, born out of hubris and the unwillingness to admit weakness at a time when humility was desperately needed to rectify the world-threatening errors. (I am curious to hear what you think of the “Chernobyl” miniseries if you have seen or get a chance to see it. I know it’s dramatized and I typically don’t like partially fictionalized historical representations, but I thought it was exceptionally well-done and captured the climate of authoritarianism well.)
I am always open to additional explanations, and I hope you are, too :-) I feel what you’ve shared does not negate the evidence of tyrannical policies but rather complements and expands that historical reality.
Back to ”Dr. Zhivago,” you might appreciate “Lara” (by Anna Pasternak) and “The Zhivago Affair” (by Peter Finn and Petra Couvée) for fascinating details on the political backdrop behind the writing of that novel. They offer an inside look at the censorship, cultural pressures, and torment of political prisoners that went on in the gulags.
The reason Stalin gets so much blame is that when he died he was convenient figure to pin on all the crimes that have been happening. You can't defend your name if you're a dead. This narrative fitted every guilty party which had hands covered in blood, Khrushchev included. So this myth has its origins in Soviet Union itself.
As far as Chernobyl mini-series is concerned it's pure propaganda which has little roots in reality. It's shot beautifully though, but if you looking for historical accuracies there you won't find much, except that "Chernobyl happened and it was bad". It's lie upon lie upon lie upon lie ad nauseam.
Have you heard of operation Mockingbird? When you are told that vaccines are great and Biden is the most popular president - you don't believe it (and rightfully so). Still you believe them when they tell you what you like. You look for confirmation of your biases and you find them. It's much easier to fool people than to make them realize that they have been fooled.
I am surprised so many people take Chernobyl mini-series at face value given it's caricature like representation of people and events. Maybe we are sliding into "Idiocracy", given current state of affairs in the world it's not hard to believe that.
I had a feeling you would say that about “Chernobyl,” and that’s why I tried to clarify I know it is a fictionalized portrayal that isn’t historically accurate, but it is beautifully shot, written, and acted, as you noted :-)
That said, Chernobyl happened, and it *was* bad, and I think the oppressive climate contributed to the incompetencies; lack of transparency; inability to admit and thus correct mistakes; and the consequences thereof, which I do think the series captures.
I am fully aware of Project Mockingbird and the use of television, film, and other forms of media to deceive, indoctrinate, and persuade the public. That is one reason I can no longer watch almost *anything* these days (besides not having any time)—everything is drenched in such brazen propagandizing, I am astonished anyone succumbs to it.
I realize Stalin is by no means the only culprit in the Soviet regime—Khrushchev, Lenin, Gorbachev, and every other leader from the top and on down the line bear a share in the responsibility for the state’s totalitarian policies and crimes against humanity.
I am also aware of the role cognitive biases like confirmation bias play in our perceptions and beliefs, and I am constantly on the alert for their influence on my judgment of a work. I discuss such cognitive biases in my first essay, “A Primer for the Propagandized: Fear Is the Mind-Killer” (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/a-primer-for-the-propagandized).
Actually mini-series haven't captured the spirit of what was happening at all. Evacuation was smooth and effective given the nature and the scale of disaster. Whole city was evacuated the next day (27th). Legasov in the mini-series has very little to do with actual Legasov. I must confess I haven't watched the series till the end, it was too painful to see how facts have been falsified. Soviet leadership or soldiers weren't heartless beasts this series claims them to be, but hey stupid and violent Russkies sell well in America. Regular Americans have no idea what happened in reality (and government doesn't have incentive to present them the truth, even if they have it, since it will break the narrative). Basically almost everything is fake in these series, but looks are very close to authentic.
I appreciate your open-mindedness though. I have a privilege of having one family tree in Russophobic country, which forced me to dig deep into these matters for my own sanity. I know it's hard to achieve full perspective without deep personal motivation. I wouldn't invest so much of my time in trying to understand if it hadn't touched me so close. I couldn't move forward in life without straightening these contradictions out, accepting grievances from both sides and finding explanation that would make sense for both sides.
Fair enough. I do have several audiobooks on Chernobyl in my queue but haven’t listened to them yet. What do you recommend for an accurate representation of the events?
I haven't read any books on Chernobyl, there have been plenty of articles in the Russian speaking press and occasionally new show up. I have read quite a number of them. Articles like books tend to be biased in some regards. I am not sure if there is anything decent written in English. Some facts however are indisputable and are documented extensively. It was a unique event, nothing like this has happened before therefore it's not surprising that some confusion happened in the first 24 hours of this tragedy. Could it be handled differently - may be, who knows? However fact is city evacuation started (and ended) the next day and the whole town (50 thousands) was evacuated. Pretty smooth, don't you think? There were no commissars threatening people, tragedy was recognized and measures applied. For smooth evacuation people have been told that it's short term. This way panic way avoided and people have been moved away from imminent danger. No one was forcing anyone, evacuated people thought it was just for a couple of days and didn't pack. Pets have been left behind but people thought they will be back soon. Now compare that to a mini-series version. In reality they were no evil commissars lurking around, but a great uncertainty in which people of authority had to make fast decisions (sometimes suboptimal ones). Imagine making life changing decisions in the situations where you simply don't know all the facts.
Now, it's just a comment (potentially biased one) and not a book. But evacuation details are widely known, hour it started and hour it ended. What was communicated to population then is not a secret as well. Legasov biography is also well known. I wouldn't wait for someone to write a proper book about it.
I was a kid back then in Minsk (~300 km to the north of Chernobyl) and we know where wind blew this day. I could have grievances, but I don't. After extensively reading up different sources I don't have anyone to blame. No malice was proven, even in rabid anti Soviet 90s where it was fashionable to talk about American dollars and soviet oppression.
Good to know and thanks for the additional details. The rapid evacuation was impressive, certainly, but everything you’ve described focuses on the reaction (no pun intended ;-)—not the poor planning, incompetence, hubris, and deception that led up to the crisis to begin with. You see similar ingredients in North Korea.
Sure, lack of protocols resulted in confusion from the beginning. I wonder though have you seen poor planning, incompetence, hubris and deception in the most recent events when USA was withdrawing from Afganistan? American citizens and Taliban allies, containers with cash and billions worth of equipment was left behind. Is USA like North Korea judging by this process?
Compare it to Soviet withdrawal from Afganistan, pretty comparable events in terms what had to be done. Facts speak that Soviet withdrawal was orderly, information is widely available about how it was done. General responsible for evacuation left the country last. There was no panic and confusion.
As you can see American government can screw up "bigly". Does it make it evil? No. There are points in American system that in my opinion should be implemented in the world. I like the concept of freedom of speech and right to bear arms. Strong independent judiciary and federalism proved quite useful in the Covid times. If Soviet system entered into such state as American one currently it would have been much harder to pull out of madness. And USA gets a lot of points for it in my book.
Have you considered possibility that you have been immersed in anti Soviet propaganda? Entertain this thought. I was able to free myself from anti American propaganda, though I see where it is coming from. I am tired of people who judge how life was by the news, fake celebrities and academics who write books being afraid to step out of line or to get social approval. Yes, life in Soviet Union wasn't perfect, but is it in America? Soviet Union collapsed because people got too comfortable with their lives. Same thing, in my opinion, is happening in America nowadays. A lot of Americans don't know (or realize) hardships that previous generations went through and are now spitting on their graves. That's how it was in USSR before collapse. I don't know what will be USA's fate, but I share deeply it's values of freedom. They do not work exactly like they are advertised, but at least that's an ideal for which people can strive for and many countries should take example from them. I won't be silent though when people are spitting on the country I was born in. It wasn't perfect, but I see a lot of outrageous lies which aren't supported a) by my experience, b) by statistics, c) by historical documents.
I always consider the possibility that whatever information I examine is propaganda of one flavor or another :-) And yes, I am more than fully aware of American propaganda, which honestly is embarrassingly transparent and rather easy to spot, as is most all propaganda once you know the telltale markers.
I applaud you for being able to free yourself from anti-American propaganda, especially considering how effective the KGB was at the art of disinformation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQN4c3uN_tA and https://smile.amazon.com/Disinformation-audiobook/dp/B00IA9T0EA/).
I would say 98% of my understanding of Soviet life, history, tyranny, and crimes against humanity comes directly from Russian sources—dozens of books by dozens of different authors, direct testimonies from people who experienced or witnessed the suffering themselves, scientific evidence of mass graves, and government officials like ex-Soviet spies.
I would never spit on Russia as I have tremendous respect for the people of your country, and I am a zealous fan of Russian literature. It is the despotic, oppressive government of the Bolshevik Revolution and USSR I condemn, just as I condemn every other totalitarian regime around the world throughout history.
Without understanding Russian Civil War it's not possible to comprehend what was happening there. Russian Revolution happened because previous government became incapable of anything and there were multiple parties involved in letting it go. Multiple foreign armies entered Russian territories during this time on the sides opposing Bolsheviks. And not for their love for Russian people, quite the opposite. During Civil War many millions died and left a lot of scars in society. I believe numerous individual tragedies resulted from it, but it was no genocide. Civil War hasn't ended in 1922/23, it's not that Civil War ended and everyone was holding hands and singing happy songs. Excesses have been punished (responsible for purge of 1937/38 and his proteges didn't live long). But hey, it's just a substack comment, I can only give hints. If you are not too invested in the narrative may be you can open your mind to another explanation of these sufferings?
I understand Russian Civil War—I read “Dr. Zhivago” 😁 Just kidding, I know it’s far more complex than what’s presented as a backdrop to the personal drama of that novel, and while I have read numerous texts on the topic, I do realize my understanding of it remains at a surface level.
It makes perfect sense that foreign armies entered the bloodbath to take advantage of the power destabilization for their own aims, and the Civil War was undoubtedly a brutal experience that left open wounds for decades afterward.
I cannot, however, concede that Stalin was a benevolent figure who did not intentionally subject millions of his own citizens to starvation, torture, imprisonment, and massacre, and the concrete evidence, testimonies, and witnesses (both victims and perpetrators) to these atrocities support these claims—Solzhenitsyn’s works or not. The Soviet state fostered a totalitarian atmosphere of oppression, censorship, and punishment for anyone brave enough to counter the narrative, resulting in catastrophic situations like Chernobyl, born out of hubris and the unwillingness to admit weakness at a time when humility was desperately needed to rectify the world-threatening errors. (I am curious to hear what you think of the “Chernobyl” miniseries if you have seen or get a chance to see it. I know it’s dramatized and I typically don’t like partially fictionalized historical representations, but I thought it was exceptionally well-done and captured the climate of authoritarianism well.)
I am always open to additional explanations, and I hope you are, too :-) I feel what you’ve shared does not negate the evidence of tyrannical policies but rather complements and expands that historical reality.
If you haven’t already, I do encourage you to watch the interview with Yuri Bezmenov (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQN4c3uN_tA) I linked above.
Back to ”Dr. Zhivago,” you might appreciate “Lara” (by Anna Pasternak) and “The Zhivago Affair” (by Peter Finn and Petra Couvée) for fascinating details on the political backdrop behind the writing of that novel. They offer an inside look at the censorship, cultural pressures, and torment of political prisoners that went on in the gulags.
The reason Stalin gets so much blame is that when he died he was convenient figure to pin on all the crimes that have been happening. You can't defend your name if you're a dead. This narrative fitted every guilty party which had hands covered in blood, Khrushchev included. So this myth has its origins in Soviet Union itself.
As far as Chernobyl mini-series is concerned it's pure propaganda which has little roots in reality. It's shot beautifully though, but if you looking for historical accuracies there you won't find much, except that "Chernobyl happened and it was bad". It's lie upon lie upon lie upon lie ad nauseam.
Have you heard of operation Mockingbird? When you are told that vaccines are great and Biden is the most popular president - you don't believe it (and rightfully so). Still you believe them when they tell you what you like. You look for confirmation of your biases and you find them. It's much easier to fool people than to make them realize that they have been fooled.
I am surprised so many people take Chernobyl mini-series at face value given it's caricature like representation of people and events. Maybe we are sliding into "Idiocracy", given current state of affairs in the world it's not hard to believe that.
I had a feeling you would say that about “Chernobyl,” and that’s why I tried to clarify I know it is a fictionalized portrayal that isn’t historically accurate, but it is beautifully shot, written, and acted, as you noted :-)
That said, Chernobyl happened, and it *was* bad, and I think the oppressive climate contributed to the incompetencies; lack of transparency; inability to admit and thus correct mistakes; and the consequences thereof, which I do think the series captures.
I am fully aware of Project Mockingbird and the use of television, film, and other forms of media to deceive, indoctrinate, and persuade the public. That is one reason I can no longer watch almost *anything* these days (besides not having any time)—everything is drenched in such brazen propagandizing, I am astonished anyone succumbs to it.
I realize Stalin is by no means the only culprit in the Soviet regime—Khrushchev, Lenin, Gorbachev, and every other leader from the top and on down the line bear a share in the responsibility for the state’s totalitarian policies and crimes against humanity.
I am also aware of the role cognitive biases like confirmation bias play in our perceptions and beliefs, and I am constantly on the alert for their influence on my judgment of a work. I discuss such cognitive biases in my first essay, “A Primer for the Propagandized: Fear Is the Mind-Killer” (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/a-primer-for-the-propagandized).
Actually mini-series haven't captured the spirit of what was happening at all. Evacuation was smooth and effective given the nature and the scale of disaster. Whole city was evacuated the next day (27th). Legasov in the mini-series has very little to do with actual Legasov. I must confess I haven't watched the series till the end, it was too painful to see how facts have been falsified. Soviet leadership or soldiers weren't heartless beasts this series claims them to be, but hey stupid and violent Russkies sell well in America. Regular Americans have no idea what happened in reality (and government doesn't have incentive to present them the truth, even if they have it, since it will break the narrative). Basically almost everything is fake in these series, but looks are very close to authentic.
I appreciate your open-mindedness though. I have a privilege of having one family tree in Russophobic country, which forced me to dig deep into these matters for my own sanity. I know it's hard to achieve full perspective without deep personal motivation. I wouldn't invest so much of my time in trying to understand if it hadn't touched me so close. I couldn't move forward in life without straightening these contradictions out, accepting grievances from both sides and finding explanation that would make sense for both sides.
Fair enough. I do have several audiobooks on Chernobyl in my queue but haven’t listened to them yet. What do you recommend for an accurate representation of the events?
I haven't read any books on Chernobyl, there have been plenty of articles in the Russian speaking press and occasionally new show up. I have read quite a number of them. Articles like books tend to be biased in some regards. I am not sure if there is anything decent written in English. Some facts however are indisputable and are documented extensively. It was a unique event, nothing like this has happened before therefore it's not surprising that some confusion happened in the first 24 hours of this tragedy. Could it be handled differently - may be, who knows? However fact is city evacuation started (and ended) the next day and the whole town (50 thousands) was evacuated. Pretty smooth, don't you think? There were no commissars threatening people, tragedy was recognized and measures applied. For smooth evacuation people have been told that it's short term. This way panic way avoided and people have been moved away from imminent danger. No one was forcing anyone, evacuated people thought it was just for a couple of days and didn't pack. Pets have been left behind but people thought they will be back soon. Now compare that to a mini-series version. In reality they were no evil commissars lurking around, but a great uncertainty in which people of authority had to make fast decisions (sometimes suboptimal ones). Imagine making life changing decisions in the situations where you simply don't know all the facts.
Now, it's just a comment (potentially biased one) and not a book. But evacuation details are widely known, hour it started and hour it ended. What was communicated to population then is not a secret as well. Legasov biography is also well known. I wouldn't wait for someone to write a proper book about it.
I was a kid back then in Minsk (~300 km to the north of Chernobyl) and we know where wind blew this day. I could have grievances, but I don't. After extensively reading up different sources I don't have anyone to blame. No malice was proven, even in rabid anti Soviet 90s where it was fashionable to talk about American dollars and soviet oppression.
Good to know and thanks for the additional details. The rapid evacuation was impressive, certainly, but everything you’ve described focuses on the reaction (no pun intended ;-)—not the poor planning, incompetence, hubris, and deception that led up to the crisis to begin with. You see similar ingredients in North Korea.
Sure, lack of protocols resulted in confusion from the beginning. I wonder though have you seen poor planning, incompetence, hubris and deception in the most recent events when USA was withdrawing from Afganistan? American citizens and Taliban allies, containers with cash and billions worth of equipment was left behind. Is USA like North Korea judging by this process?
Compare it to Soviet withdrawal from Afganistan, pretty comparable events in terms what had to be done. Facts speak that Soviet withdrawal was orderly, information is widely available about how it was done. General responsible for evacuation left the country last. There was no panic and confusion.
As you can see American government can screw up "bigly". Does it make it evil? No. There are points in American system that in my opinion should be implemented in the world. I like the concept of freedom of speech and right to bear arms. Strong independent judiciary and federalism proved quite useful in the Covid times. If Soviet system entered into such state as American one currently it would have been much harder to pull out of madness. And USA gets a lot of points for it in my book.