You need to talk to more locals. I live less than 19 miles from there, and pets in this area, and people are already suffering symptoms of exposure. Even a mile from me, dead frogs and fish in the river. And in places you can see a film on the water. And we are UPstream. Air borne clouds dropped acid rain and other chemicals. For easily many miles, dead dear, fox, and coyotes. No birds left. Chickens dead. Those left stopped laying eggs. Livestock getting sick. My friend was told it was safe to go home, and didn't last an hour. His eyes were filmy and oozing, headaches, and his face puffed up. He left again. His cat is really sick. East Palestine is not an exaggeration. Here is what we KNOW of the chemicals that spread for over 50 miles.
Part of “Controlled Burn” Get Physical now -Establish medical condition/records now for later
Vinyl Chloride - When burned, produces carbon monoxide, phosgene, & hydrogen chloride. Carbon monoxide is a poisonous gas that can cause asphyxiation at toxic levels.
Butyl acrylate - industrial chemical used to make paints & plastics. Inhaled, it can cause coughing, wheezing, & shortness of breath. Exposures can lead to headaches, dizziness, nausea, & vomiting.
Benzene - There were 2 cars of benzene, a highly flammable liquid. Inhalation may cause incapacitation, irritation to the eyes, skin, & pulmonary organs.
Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether - Chemical solvent irritates the eyes, skin, & respiratory tract: in high doses may affect the central nervous system, blood, kidneys, & liver.
Ethyl hexyl acrylate – Used in paint - When inhaled, ethylhexyl acrylate irritates the nose, throat, & even the lungs, causing coughing & shortness of breath. (Found in Little Beaver Creek, PA – a mile or so from my house – UPSTREAM from the derailment)
Isobutylene – used in aviation fuel - In its liquid form it can cause frostbite. In vapor form, can cause dizziness & headaches, as well as coma or death in high doses. Isobutylene is regarded to be of the same hazard level as vinyl chloride.
Phosgene – WWI Chemical warfare - a toxic gas used extensively in World War I as a choking agent, killing tens of thousands of soldiers. For some people, it will smell like freshly cut grass.
Benzo(a)anthracene &
Chrysene are probable carcinogens &
Phenol is an irritant. All the last 3 are also very toxic to aquatic life (1, 2, 3).
Not part of “controlled burn,” but burned in the initial explosion/fire:
POLYETHYLENE was destroyed by the initial fire, in the explosion caused by the derailment, so not part of the “controlled burn,” but certainly burned up in the initial explosion when the train derailed. It is made from the polymerization of ethylene.
PROPYLENE GLYCOL - tank breached/lost most of load (part of “controlled burn” since contents leaked due to derailment)
DIPROPYLENE GLLYCOL – as per EPA – 1 car: fire impingement/no signs of tank breach – 2nd car - had small leak from BOV, unknown amount of product in car
PETROLEUM LUBE OIL – double tank breached/lost most of load and more “flame impinged, small leak from top fittings, unknown amount left in tank”
It's right on the border of Ohio and PA. The crash was behind the gas station I used, which is literally about 100 feet from the border. Since gas is quite a bit cheaper in Ohio (PA tax is ridiculous), many Pennsylvanians drive over the border, and that was a busy gas station. It's a quiet, sleepy little town surrounded by farmland, a big state park, and woods.
My main concern for those in East Palestine and surrounding areas, is that the local farmers, and there are a lot, are losing livestock and chickens, pasture and crops, all of which are becoming contaminated. Farms and businesses that have been in families for generations are in danger of going bankrupt. That is not fair, because I haven't heard the government taking any responsibility for this. They did nothing wrong.
And of course, we had a lot of autonomy pertaining to food. Hunting and local farms provided all kinds of chicken, pork and beef. Eggs, milk, cream, yogurt, cheese, honey, maple syrup, etc. Now that all these farms are contaminated, and hunting is out of the question, we are more dependent on big chain food stores and the government.
I'm sorry, but I really think all this is meticulously planned. Even the "White Noise" movie should make anyone suspicious. Plus the EPA quietly raised the safe exposure rate for vinyl chloride a few months ago.
The difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth? About 6 months. For real.
No, but it doesn't surprise me. Like the new medical codes for UNvaxxed and UNDERvaxxed people. And digital IDs for your children's health records. Bad, bad stuff.
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
I do too. It just seems too coincidental that yet more farmland and livestock is being destroyed. I guess you can only burn down so many food processing plants and chicken farms and crash planes into them only so many times before even the dumbest liberal agrees with you. I had hear that these Ohians were refusing to sell their land even at inflated offers.
TCDDs (Dioxins) are the 2nd most toxic chemical next to radioactive waste that are next to impossible to clean. The International Joint Commission, comprised of the United States and Canadian governments, has publicly stated that zero exposure to dioxin is the only safe level. There is no permissible exposure limit set by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) [51,52]
TCDD is a solid chemical compound that has NO color or odor and has the appearance of white crystalline needles. [67,68] TCDD can enter your body if you inhale contaminated particulate, have skin or eye contact with contaminated soot, ash, or other materials, or eat contaminated food. [15,16] Due to the fact that ultra-fine smoke particulate matter generated in fires is often less than 3 microns in size (half the size of a red blood cell), inhalation of dioxin laden particulate can easily bypass the lungs and enter the bloodstream. [17]
Thank you for that. The government AND NORFOLD SOUTHERN *should* be taking FULL responsibility for this. Let's see what happens after Trump visits East Palestine this Wednesday. I'm not holding my breath for any of this to come out on the fake news, enemy of the people mainstream media.
The EPA published the list of what was in the train cars. I'd have to look it up again, but it's from multiple sources. Us locals know there is a cover up, the bastards. Can't hunt, local farmers are going to go out of business. We had lots of food independence here, but no more!
Nobel Prize for Mass Murder. Chimera of Josef Mengele & Trofim Lysenko. Put the laughter in manslaughter. Motto: "Vaccination is the leading cause of coincidence." Favorite animals: Beagle puppies, you, your children.
Thank you for that. But bear in mind that the EPA and government hasn't had much to say about dioxin poisoning, which is an even greater concern. Also, there were at least 10 other chemicals of varying toxicity released after the initial explosion and fire (flames shot 100 feet in the air) and later the controlled burn. Some were less toxic than vinyl chloride, but some much worse. Bear in mind that us locals have experienced/observed not only human exposure, but dead pets and livestock, dead wildlife such as deer, coyote, fox, etc. The streams and rivers are full of dead frogs and fish, and I haven't heard any birds for well over a week or more. Farms for 50, even 100 miles away are losing livestock, and of course their pastures and crops have been contaminated. And this is only the short term effects. DON'T DRINK OR WASH WITH THE WATER. Buy bottled. The best thing you can do if you are in the effected area is MOVE. I'm selling my home, and I'm 19 miles away. It's much, MUCH worse than the media is telling anyone, and don't expect the govt. or EPA, or even the railroad, to take responsibility for the damage. Farms in families for generations are about to go bankrupt. The local food supply, even hunting, is no longer as independent as we used to be. Home values in E. Palestine have plummeted already. Who is going to buy there? People and animals are still getting sick. This is much worse than most people are aware of.
This is easy to say: If you are ever in the area of such a chemical fire, the best thing to do would really be evacuate (upwind in this case). I know it'd be hard to not even return to the house to get the cat and dog and your papers, but it might literally be a case of life or death. Those gases are dangerous. You might have to stay away for many days.
I'm not trying to minimize the other likely environmental damage from liquid or solid spills, leakage into ground water, etc. and the inevitable loss of property values. But worrying about PCBs in your well water is a much more manageable problem, than dying a horrible death because you breathed a toxic chemical.
Relevant digression for a second. Before folks get tricked into backing Nikki Haley based on superficials, hope everyone here knows she requires vaccination to attend her meetings, but "no longer" requires masks.
Oh, and look up the Netflix movie, White Noise. Came out a few months ago about a train derailment near E. Palestine Ohio. One of the extras in the movie actually had to evacuate for real. The globalist government is so evil.
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
I live in PA about 40 miles (as the crow flies) from East Palestine. Our governor, A Dem, was originally dismissive of possible environmental and health concerns. He has since backtracked, A bit, penning A letter to Joe Biden(?) Listing his concerns.
I saw the dead fish, the sick foxes and 6 dead chickens on TV. I'm sincerely NOT being argumentative, but if the animal deaths are as you describe, where is the evidence? Almost everyone has a cell phone, most with a camera.
With that said, I don't concur with El Gato's take. These people experienced an horrific crash in the middle Of the town, were evacuated then quickly unevacuated (after a massive "controlled" burn). The Ohio governor tells residents they should probably use bottled water, then the next day says the water in town is fine. Norfolk Southern avoided A town hall by stating they feared for the safety of its employees. I could go on, but my point is as follows. These people feel abandoned. They do not feel they are getting the straight story from government officials or Norfolk Southern. They do not know who or what to trust. And until this past Monday evening, they could not get the attention of the media, the government, or the railroad. They are feeling ill, and are afraid. And Kathleen's list of the chemicals burned scares me. And burying the debris from the burn? Scares me too.
I live about 18 miles as the crow flies from East Palestine, and I can definitely attest to dead wildlife, chickens, sick live stock and dead frogs and fish. NO birds for 2 weeks, they are just starting to come back.
Substacks by Dr. Syed Haider and Eric Coppolino both say that the real issue with burning vinyl chloride is the emission of dioxins, which are tremendously toxic even in trace concentrations.
Thanks for pointing out those links. Just as short info for other readers: Dioxins are endocrine disruptors. Endocrine disruptors disturb the hormonal processes in your body: think metabolic illnesses, rewiring cells towards obesity, falling sperm counts and reduced fertility, reduction of masculine and feminine phenotypes, depression and other emotional disorders, sleep disorders, falling energy, cancers. The original level of "safety" for endocrine disruptors was based on cellular processes that did not take into account what is happening in the nucleus, which is impacted at levels thousands of times smaller. These chemicals actually rewrite the epigenetics of cells, meaning that the cell's functions and products can be changed forever. Spend 2 days toughing it out in the environmental disaster? Your cells may be permanently changed.
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Kathleen, the smaller animals had central nervous system shutdown after asphyxiation from hydrochloric acid and phosgene. The levels in the air will eventually taper off; but it’s still soaked into everything, grass, trees, soil, floors. They’ll continue to get sick like us, just faster. The further distance away from East Palestine; the less contamination there will be, which doesn’t equate to safe, just not as bad. Eventually, they will have to admit; a cleanup that would have taken a month was converted to a bomb. Fire and explosion are chemical reactions; new compounds are formed, like acid rain. The vinyl chloride (chloroethene) couldn’t collect in a trench; because it sublimates, like dry ice. Flammable gases are shipped as liquids like propane for stability; but under pressure, so when released they boil and turn to gas. The only problem then is static electricity from the friction of escaping the tank. You’re not going to get liquid from a pressurized tank unless you can transfer it to another pressure tank; so you’re going to get gas, like from a gas grill. Five tanks at 20,000 gallons (around 10 lbs) is about 100,000 gallons or 1,000,000 pounds. Releasing that to the air is admittedly not good; but it’s not as bad as igniting it, this holds true for anything that hits the ground. The problem with burning it; chemicals bond to make new compounds like dioxins, and by-products like phosgene. The phosgene is short-lived; I’ve been overcome, nearly had a heart attack, but it can kill. The dioxins stick around much longer; 30, 50, 100 years. What’s worse; there are hundreds and while not all are carcinogenic, those made from burning chlorine are. So by creating dioxins they transformed a gas cloud that would have been a short-term cancer risk into a permanent one. The hydrogen chloride and phosgene are water soluble; the newly-created dioxins are not, you’ll carry them forever. East Palestine is essentially done, it can never be the same. Maybe 5 ,10 miles; a total loss, and I’m sure there are some other towns that will want to talk to them.
So true. And neither the govt nor the rail line will admit to it and take responsibility. Farms/businesses that have been in families for many generations will go out of business. Food autonomy is gone, with even all wildlife along with streams and pastures and crops contaminated.
And bear in mind that the initial derailment resulted in an explosion with flames shooting 100 feet in the air. A friend witnesses this from his upstairs window, as his home was only a couple blocks away. So what burned in the initial explosion? And if anything, the "controlled burn" was even worse. I don't know how much damage was done in the initial explosion and fire, but I do know it was made FAR worse with the ridiculous "controlled" burn. No excuse for that. The mushroom cloud from the controlled burn looked like the result of an atomic bomb explosion. If anyone has ever seen pictures of that - that's what it looked like. And spread for miles and miles ... This was a criminal act, for sure.
Yes saw pictures... just like FRauDci will never admit he was wrong or that he said one thing then said the exact opposite but then again even Trump never said the jabs were bad.. still wants people to get them.
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Also, I don’t mean to downplay the seriousness of the dioxin plume, just comparatively effects from their proximity will differ. Rather than being spread out; the amount being absorbed by anyone remaining there will remain high, resulting in the body’s inability to detox from it.
Yes, I’ve seen it; and there’s no way to restore East Palestine back to the way it was, it just isn’t possible. I saw Pripyat, outside Chernobyl back in late 80’s; and their mistake was washing everything down with fire hoses, which pushed the contamination further down into the ground. The problem here is similar; the weight of so much heavy liquid pushed it down through the soil, now every time it rains it moves down further. I’ve worked in areas like this and others; some superfund sites forty years, and there’s only one way that won’t make it worse. Like you said, you need high temps and the only way that’s possible; you have to demolish structures, trees, everything, haul it in closed bins to an environmental incinerator, this takes months. You have to scrape the top layer of soil, a foot or two, and dig that trench probably twenty feet. Nobody can live there while this is going on; the railroad needs to be rerouted, there’s no sense in moving back, because you never get all of it. The dioxin plume carried some of it away, but there’s more right there. Vinyl chloride is man-made too; but it breaks down eventually, dioxins are more like PCBs or PFAS, so it couldn’t possibly have reached temperatures high enough in open air to render it safe. The updraft from the heat pushes it into cooler air; so it doesn’t burn completely, that’s why the incinerator sequesters it. I’m sorry there’s no better way; but what’s still in the ground there is even worse than what blew away, and unlike the smoke plume this will get worse with time.
🗨 Wednesday still mandated evacuation. Thursday rolls around and now suddenly everything is fine and well with air monitoring on "WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR". Lots of local videos of fish kills, chickens and foxes. Ohio EPA representative when asked about the animals and live stock, "We are here to protect people, not the animals."
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Cincinnati here, our water intakes from the river are closed and we're running on reserves because the main mass of toxic shit is expected to float by us sometime between now and Monday. This is a serious disaster which is causing huge disruptions across the state and will continue to cause disruptions across the country as it continues. I'm in general all for a "wait and see" approach to anything government and media, but this is one of those things which is outright reasonable to be concerned, angry, and demanding action over.
Has anyone that you talked to personally had the water or air tested for any of the chemicals you mentioned? You don't need to wait for the EPA or the state, there are private labs that will test for all the chemicals you mentioned with the option of for information only or legal proceedings (chain of custody & validation considerations).
I just want to know what the truth is and not be flooded with doomsday scenarios that can easily and quickly be proven false. COVID brought into the spotlight that by putting fancy scientific terms on everyday things you can scare people into excessive reactions.
Why should anyone trust the EPA or state? I don't. I've been buying bottled water (not local) for me and my pets. The only thing I trust is my own eyes and ears. Dead wildlife all over. Haven't heard birds in at least 10 days. Sick pets and people. Dead frogs, fish, etc. in all the streams, plus a colorful film in areas. EVERYTHING around here is obviously contaminated. I'm 19 miles away from E.Palestine in western PA, UPSTREAM from there, and the damage to fields, streams, pets, etc. is here too. A stream about a mile from here is full of dead fish. This is truly not only one of the worst ecological disasters in recent decades, but will be a major economical one as well. I'm selling my home and moving before it's too late.
Nope. I can see the cracker plant from my home across the ohio river. The cracker plant troubles are more of a regulatory kind. Of course, the bejing biden admin is hell bent on shutting these plants down. So I'm not sure what to believe about their accusations. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the criminal acts committed by the EPA and rail line in East Palestine. That is truly a major economical as well as ecological disaster that will plummet home values, put farms/businesses in families for generations OUT of business, destroy the food autonomy we enjoyed in this area, and even hunting is out of the question now. And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take responsibility for the destruction or the ruin of so many lives and livlihoods. Media involved in MAJOR coverup.
I am your biggest fan, Mr. Gato Malo, but I don't think you understand what is to be upset about here. It is not that there was a derailment. It is not that there was a chemical spill. I got that neither is particularly rare. It is that the situation headed down a path that was the most expedient for the railway, with the endorsement & complicity of the ruling class, that was truly reckless. Please don't think unkindly of me but I do happen to have a PhD in Chemistry, and the idea of purposely voiding a rail car full of a hazardous material for an uncontrolled burn in a populated area with only cursory concern of the locals is criminal. And you're talking with a guy who had a flask of zirconium borohydride blow up in his hand. Why, next thing they'll be forcing us all to take experimental injections!
I read the Doomsberg perspective 3 times, as I have yours.
I respect his - and your - knowledge and scholarly approach as well as his and your wish to not overstate. Hyperbole is an issue, and yes, it takes a toll on lots of levels.
But Doomberg is not in East Palestine, nor (to my knowledge) has he traveled there in the past two weeks and seen with his own eyes and listened with his own ears to the residents and the land. Nor are or have you, El Gato Malo.
In this instance, I believe both of you are understating on principle - and missing the mark with regards to the severity of this chemical spill and 'vent'.
And when you, as above, refer to the Doomsberg piece and identify him as a 'legit top expert on exactly this' - all I can say is, those are precisely the words spoken to me countless times throughout this nonsense 'pandemic' with regards to not being injected, and questioning the reasoning of the so-called Covid narrative. They referred me to 'legit top experts' in the CDC / NIH / blah blah blah.
Legit top experts sometimes miss the mark. In this case, I think you both missed the mark. And I hope I'm wrong - that would delight me. I hope it turns out that I'm overstating this to the max. Time will tell.
Take it from a local. YOU are exactly RIGHT. This is a major ecological disaster, as well as an economic one. Things here are FAR worse than anyone is reporting, and don't expect the govt. or rail line to take responsibility for the lives and livelihoods that have been devastated here. I hate to say it, but all the dead deer, coyote, fox and wildlife, the sick and dying livestock, dead chickens, dead frogs and fish in streams even UPSTREAM from E. Palestine (where I live) and the eerie silence from the absence of birds, dead pets, etc. tells a far worse story than the bastards want to take responsibility for. I read that piece too. It did not contain even the full list of chemicals that the EPA did, nor did it contain many facts. A puff piece by someone paid to lie, like the media. Believe me, it's BAD here. VERY bad.
I believe you, Kathleen. Please take good care. I wish I could say something more helpful, but words aren't really of much use right now. You and yours and everyone affected by this chemical poisoning are in my - and everyone else's - heart. Holding you with much love.
Thank you so much. At least I can move. Special prayers for the local farmers, whose contaminated land and livestock have been in the family for many generations. Such a heart breaking shame for them, as they will literally "lose the farm." I'm so angry at the government and rail lines, this was so uncalled for. That "controlled burn" showed incredible disregard for human life. Thank you for your prayers, they are greatly appreciated.
"For the rest of this piece, we will take their reports, measurements, and commentary at face value. To do otherwise is to assume the EPA would fabricate complex technical data on the fly to deceive the public and protect the very corporate interests they otherwise infuriate with their harsh oversight on a daily basis." seems odd.
Of course they would fabricate whatever, as any alphabet agency would. * They did after 9/11.*
Maybe the EPA sometimes infuriates with oversight, to fill parts of the narrative that have them crusading for sustainability, as the FDA infuriates raw milk producers, supplement companies, and sometimes catches e. coli tainted meat or lettuce and does something good for a change. And the FDA legislates that canned dog food is heated to very high temperatures. But when it serves their masters, they fabricate technical data to deceive the public and protect corporate / and beyond corporate, interests.
I understand that burning to prevent explosion may have been the least - awful choice at the time. *But, still, it's unprecedentedly toxic, the scale of this. Chris Martenson shared toxicology info about the tiny amounts of those chemicals capable of serious shit.
Also The Highwire did great coverage today. **The company used for water testing is known for being as industry friendly and human-health-negligent as covid vaccine clinical trial sites. *And - to get "free water testing" - **Residents have to sign a paper that starts with allowing access to their property to do the test (fair enough), and then says agree to indemnify / not hold liable for damages. And of course, after everyone worse useless masks for one year or two or three, people are lining up to a town hall, and no one is masked - no real respirators, besides the Highwire reporter. https://thehighwire.com/watch/
Understand rail accidents happen all the time, but I think something changed recently, about less time to inspect cars, and ignoring employees saying there aren't enough safety measures ...
I dig gato malo but I really think he’s off on this one. Far more serious than characterized. The other spills may fit the characterization and are the result of sensational reporting. But that’s why they’ve faded from memory already. Palestine is different which is why it’s still getting a ton of local, grassroots reporting. They big media outlets aren’t keeping this alive for ratings. Just the opposite. It’s a real issue. That’s why it’s not going away.
I agree, there's a base rate but the perceived severity scale is uniquely human and isn't objective. In a world of a countless vehicle accidents ones involving a school bus of kids dying is different even if it only marginally changes statistics. There's probably millions of railcar loads of chemicals moved annually and I'm sure a sizeable number derail or even involve accidents. But this one was atypical and the deafening quiet from astroturf environmental activists is particularly telling.
I also viewed the Highwire today. What’s happened is extremely serious for the people living there, for waterways etc. They give a full list of the chemicals and don’t deny that what they did afterwards with releasing and burning was definitely the wrong decision, however; the people should be given accommodation and everything they need far away from the site until it is proven safe.
Not gonna happen. They can force these same taxpayers to fork over billions to house illegals in luxury housing, and send tons of money to corrupt officials in Ukraine, but to actually help American citizens providing the tax money?
"For the rest of this piece, we will take their reports, measurements, and commentary at face value. To do otherwise is to assume the EPA would fabricate complex technical data on the fly to deceive the public and protect the very corporate interests they otherwise infuriate with their harsh oversight on a daily basis."
Jeez, gato. Referring us to “experts” after the last three years. Your points on stats and shark stories are good. Folks in the area have good reason to be concerned, though. Government and media have lost the trust of many. That has to be won back through lots of personal effort. Your piece may be 100% accurate but showing stats to worried people will work only if you have their trust.
Kathleen, I share your very real concerns here. I was trying to state that when trust has been weakened or lost, a pile of statistics, even accurate ones, is not likely a successful tactic. My best wishes to you.
Thank you. And agreed. Been DECADES since I've even remotely trusted the government swamp. Which is global. All our agencies are corrupt. The disregard for human life is beyond belief. I can move more easily than those that have had farms in their families generations. None of this is being handled fairly or honestly. And the coverup is MASSIVE.
It was expedient and way less expensive to the rail road company to burn off the toxic chemicals rather than clean them up according to EPA protocol. I think the decision to burn off the box cars had as much to do with $$$ as it did with the volatility of the chemicals. What is clear is that the health & safety of the town's residents was at the bottom of the list of priorities. The fact that the MSM treated this incident as a nothing burger is also suspect.
No way in hell. And the initial derailment already resulted in an explosion with flames 100 feet in the air. As witnessed by those living near the derailment. How come no "schrapnel" damage from that? The "controlled" burn came later. That was a criminal act. That town should have been completely evacuated, and that mess cleaned up WITHOUT burning a dozen toxic chemicals, resulting in dioxin for one. We have the technology to do that safely. This is a major ecological as well as economic disaster for anyone within 100 miles from here. And don't expect the EPA, or rail line to take any responsibility for short term, let alone long term effects.
It's my understanding that the semi-controlled burn was the least-worst choice. If a flammable tanker car explodes, it is a rather effective bomb. And, need I point out, you get a fireball at no extra charge. Curious readers might want to explore the meaning of "BLEVE".
You might want to talk with the locals. The initial derailment resulted in an explosion and flames 100 feet in the air. A couple of cars exploded. And no "shrapnel damage." How bout that. My friend was only a block or 2 from the derailment. The explosion woke him, and he witnessed the flames.
So what toxic chemicals were released in the initial explosion? Who knows? No one is talking about that.
Now the initial explosion and fire were bad enough. They should have evacuated everyone and cleaned up the mess WITHOUT any so called "controlled" burn, if there is such a thing. They made matters FAR worse and widespread, just to open up the rail line again. That was an absolute EVIL and CRIMINAL act. And so much more dangerous.
We have the technology to clean up that mess safely WITHOUT toxic chemical burns, which they obviously were not able to control the results of.
Now we have a widespread, MAJOR ecological, as well as economical disaster here that resulted from that criminal "controlled" burn.
And believe me, neither the govt. nor the rail line will admit to the extent of the damage because they are not taking responsibility for it.
There was no need to burn the rest of the chemicals the way they did. No excuse whatsoever, and the disregard for human as well as animal life is beyond belief.
There already was a "fire ball" with the initial crash. The flames could be seen from my friends farm that is over 3 miles away. They thought one of their fields was on fire at first. Where was the "shrapnel" from the first couple of cars that exploded? And vented gas had already leaked out.
Need I point out that the crash was OUTSIDE of town. Behind Leake Oil, about 100 feet from the PA line. I miss going to Leake Oil for my gas and snacks, it's still closed. But I haven't seen any shrapnel damage to the building, and it's about the closest building to the crash.
There were much more responsible ways to contain the damage, the LEAST safe of which was burning it. But to contain the damage the RIGHT way would have entailed shutting down the rail line and the town for much longer, and of course that would have meant that the rail line and EPA admit to and take responsibility for the damage already done.
BULL "effective bomb." That was a sorry @ss excuse to nuke a town (and hundreds of surrounding miles of air, streams, land and life) just to open the rail lines sooner and COVER UP the incident. Plain and simple.
My friends are now ill, having made trips to the emergency room for breathing problems. They have to PAY THEMSELVES to get their well and pasture tested (they board about 20 horses, and have dogs and cats). One dog is showing signs of exposure and a couple of the barn cats are nowhere to be seen. Dead turkeys and fox have been found in the nearby woods. What are the long term effects going to be? Mmmmm? What happens to their livlihoods? And they are in PA about 3 miles from East Palestine. Other farms, animals and people all over this area have been effected.
Believe me. we've all been lied to and there is a MASSIVE cover up going on here.
Don't hold your breath waiting for this maladministration to do anything about it. But hey, no one is talking about Joe's seemingly endless caches of classified documents so there's that.
Not sure if this derailment is much of a distraction, with the way everyone involved, including the media, is ignoring and covering it up. This whole administration is a "distraction" from any truth or "America First" agenda. They can house millions of illegal alien criminals in luxury housing, send billions to corrupt officials in Ukraine, but they can't house those in and around East Palestine in safer areas. The hell with Americans paying taxes. This is shameful, evil and disgusting on SO many levels ... WE ARE BEING REPLACED.
If we only had this much outrage and concern among the approximately 75% covid-shotted citizens (including most likely East Palestinians) who voluntarily injected themselves with unknown and undisclosed chemicals multiple times over the past three years, and continue to poison themselves and their children today. Yes, this train derailment is a chemical poison disaster for certain areas of the US, the covid shot medical tyranny industry is a global chemical poison chernobyl for the entire human species.
The major difference between those that CHOSE to get shots and this criminal disaster, is CHOICE. No one in the area CHOSE this.
And there is no evidence that East Palestinians got any more shots than the general population.
And believe me, the derailment is already being called the "East Palestine Chernobyl" for very good reason. Talk to the locals. It's criminal what the EPA and rail lines have done, and are taking no responsibility for.
And the Ohio River runs into the Mississippi, and will contaminate the water and food supply all the way down to Louisiana. Betcha the news isn't covering that one.
You really need to develop some compassion there. I have never even gotten a flu shot, let alone the poison clot shot. Never had the flu either. And there are sick pets, dead wild life, and no birds around my home anymore. Dead frogs and fish in the Little Beaver Creek less than a mile from my home, and I'm 19 miles UPSTREAM from East Palestine.
Don't equate this major ecological, as well as devastating economic disaster here with the clot shot. It's really, REALLY bad here, much worse and more wide spread than the govt. or the rail line is taking responsibility for.
Kathleen - I really appreciate your local and educated views on this disaster and thank you for educating me!
I wonder if part of the shock in all of this is that - perhaps for the first time - American citizens are beginning to realize the EPA doesn't (and hasn't really ever) work(ed) for them. Just like the FDA doesn't protect citizens from Big Pharma. These alphabet agencies are captured. They are shields between consumers/citizens and the corporate lords they exist to protect. This is fascism. American citizens are acceptable collateral damage to them.
You are exactly right. The 9 most terrifying words in the English language: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." I think Reagan said that one. So true. I really feel for local farmers, whose land and businesses have been in the family for many generations. They will be going out of business, literally "losing the farm." How heartbreaking is that? Or those with families that can't afford to move. It's criminal what they are done.
Rarely disagree with a feline. But you are way off on this one.
First, the number of actual derailments is NOT over 1000 a year. Or 2000. Or 1700. Or whatever is making the rounds on Twitter. It’s actually very low. Like a couple dozen. Actual derailments, not train ‘incidents’. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And then there is this.
Tweet from @tennesseemaga13
Account suspended immediately after tweet was posted.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT- the laws
governing Agenda 2030 land
development allow governments to
seize polluted land and move their
residents into smart cities.
"Important to note - if the land +
water around you is completely
poisoned, you don't get to opt out
of the "smart city" model coming
down the pike. Are you starting to get
the picture.
And, how come all the derailments with chemicals have happened in battleground states. Ohio. (Oh and right on the border with, wait for it, PA). Arizona. Michigan.
I think the main article may have been written prematurely. With respect to the plight of the residents, their retribution will have to come from the class action scumbags - I mean lawyers. This " incident " will be way too lucrative for them to pass up. Locals - as you should know by now - Sign Nothing !
You are exactly right. And around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
Thanks. In addition to agreeing with all that you said, what I find the most egregious is that the citizens in harms way have been completely abandoned. By those in power who have a duty (or at least used to have a duty) and the media. The county in the crosshairs voted 71% for Trump. The choice to ignore their peril is no coincidence. Had this happened in a deep blue county millions would already have been spent, millions more would be on the way, and media coverage would be none stop. It’s so disgusting, but not surprising.
As I said in my post, and I will repeat for your edification as you seem to miss the point, this is like comparing apples and oranges. In fact, come to think of it, you made my point for me. The 1163 are minor incidents, with the hazmat spills the exception. And that’s the point. 10 last year. 3, or now 4 of them in a week? No coincidence there, eh.
Thanks for clarifying and strengthening my original argument. The feline has it totally wrong this time. It’s rare. But it happens.
Whether it's intentional 5G warfare or just a "natural" consequence of our hyper-connected digital world, it just seems too fast.
I still struggle with the balance. This train crash has tipped me out-of-balance for a few days, which I really don't like. I wrote that substack article in part to just remind myself about why it's important to stay grounded.
I struggle as well and I'm a dyed-in-the-wool cynic. It's my nature to refute things like this, especially when it seems like nearly everyone is all in. But like shibumi points out, this shit seems to be occurring at a rapidly accelerating pace. It's becoming both harder to ignore while also harder get a firm, objective grasp on an "incident" before being clocked in the head with the next.
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
MBA's run everything, cutting corners to save pennies and there is no resilience in our systems. Here's Attorney Renz's take on WW3 if you are interested.
Fine. So 10 spills in 2022. 4 led to evacs. And now there have been 4, and 4 evacs in 6 weeks. I’m not good at math. But I am pretty good at pattern recognition. And I see one. Or the possibility of one. <1 per month in 2022 and now 4 in 6 weeks in 2023 seems, well, excessive. And 1 evac every 3 months, and in 2023 4 evacs inside of 30 days.
And you don’t think that maybe there’s a pattern here. And all of them coming after the installed occupant started shooting shit down.
You can’t compare the ‘minor’ incidents with the major ones. It’s apples and oranges as I said.
Add in the destruction of dozens of food processing and farm facilities, and I’d be more comfy with a theory that terrorism is occurring regularly, and the current regime is doing nothing. Versus giving them a pass because there were 1163 train incidents last year. There were. But not like what occurred in the past two weeks.
I’m wondering what counts as a derailment. I bet the definition is a lot looser than what would make it useful to establish a baseline for the type of derailment that occurred in OH. 3+ derailments per day in the US? That doesn’t even make it pass the smell test. There is no chance it’s that high without the definition of what we would normally call a derailment being far different.
I agree that it’s important to establish a baseline but the definition also matters. Otherwise we’re talking about 2 very different things.
After a little searching (I’m not going to spend a ton of time on this), a derailment doesn’t necessarily mean the train leaves the tracks. I’m fact, if something falls off a train car that counts as a derailment.
Again, as with my last comment, I think we are looking at another “gender pay gap” here. I don’t see reporting on the result of the derailment.
The FRA does track data for “explosion” which is probably closer to what happened in OH than a derailment. The last reported explosion was in 2019.
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
We don't care what the stats are. What we care about is the massive cover up going on here. The govt. and all it's agencies are totally corrupt. The media does nothing but lie and help the coverup. This swamp govt. of ours can house millions of illegals in luxury housing (with our tax dollars, including those tax dollars from the affected areas) but they can't move Americans to safe housing while the spill is being contained RESPONSIBLY???? ie; NOT BY BURNING IT. Stinks to high heaven. Literally.
Copy. I got that. That just reinforces my original point. Massive difference between a hazmat derailment, of which there are on average 10 per year, and a minor derailment in the yard.
10 hazmat per year avg and that number has steadily decreased over the past century. And here we have 4 within a 14 day period, and that is not normal. That was my ‘argument’ with the feline.
The feline got everything wrong this time. You are exactly right. It really seems we are under attack right now. Gee, wonder what's going to happen this summer to make CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency) mandatory? No vax, they'll cut off your money. No electric car, no money. And forget about food independence with all the poisoning of the environment going on. Don't like what you say on social media? No money. People dying from cancer years down the road? No worries. Just population control. It all stinks to high heaven.
Maybe. Re:CBDC. I’m a long way from convinced. Not as to the eventuality, rather the timeline. The government can’t do anything correctly or on time. It’s been memory holed, but as a point of reference recall the Obamacare fiasco. They had 3+ years to get ready, spent billions of dollars, hired numerous ‘expert’ vendors, and they couldn’t even roll out a website and a sign up process that a 9th grade team project could have completed in a semester.
It’s going to happen eventually. I just don’t think it’s imminent. There are two overarching reasons for a CBDC. 1. Control. 2. Currency devaluation.
Inflation is already taking care of #2. And #1 Is not something they can pull off in a run up to the election. Rigged or not, I just don’t see them taking that risk.
I could be wrong, of course. I just try to assess the probability and I think it’s pretty low.
Interesting article here, El Gato... and I read Doomberg's article as well... I also watched Chris' vid over at PP, and read a bunch of other articles. I tend to avoid Twitter as it is just a cesspool of flail (IMO).
I am concerned that you and Doomie have swung to the "it's just fine" camp on this one. Maybe so, but if the last 3 years taught us anything, it's to seriously distrust the Narrative. And wouldn't the EPA fall under "the narrative" to some degree?
I don't trust Doomie's words: "In our experience, the EPA would not look to minimize the severity of an industrial accident of this type. Quite the opposite." I think that was once true, but in this day and age my _baseline_ is to assume all government agencies are either incompetent or compromised or both.
The idea that a "controlled burn" is somehow a better option just smells like a dead fish to me. I'm totally not an expert but that's how I see it.
Anyway, the two big failures here that I wish would get addressed are (1) that for more than 10 days, nobody really knew or cared about this (failure of MSM to take their jobs seriously) until suddenly it was a "bleeder" so lede it, and (2) where the #$% was Buttigeig in all of this?! His absence and silence for nearly 2 weeks should be ample grounds for termination
And my understanding is the controlled burn was based on “models” done by the Dept of Defence. So now we are trusting “models”? And why was it done by the Dept of Defence? I’m with you, smells like dead fish. And as as Ohioan, anything involving Mikie DeSwine has the smell of dead fish.
Now we are trusting models? The whole pandemic response was based on flawed computer models that said hundreds of millions would die practically overnight. The whole climate change agenda is based on models. Practically everything we do these days is based on a predictive model, rather than fact.
For some reason we have the hubris to think our models for all of these incredibly complex systems are in anyway accurate, when we can barely predict the weather tomorrow. We're just so smart now we know everything, we're not dumb like our silly barbaric ancestors.
The science is settled, there's a consensus don'tcha know.
And when he does make an appearance he blames Trump. I am no Trump supporter but that made me sick. This administration had two years to make changes in transportation and sat on their hands. When a person takes such an important position, their first responsibility is to the citizens of the USA.
What the #$% was Buttigeig and the Biden administration doing for two years. Apparently blaming Trump. Disgusting.
Yes!! There was a Dem president, Senate, and House for two years. I actually thought that there would be a lot of changes and hopefully some good ones. Nothing. Nothing but medical mandates, censorship, and supporting a war in Ukraine.
EXACTLY right. And if you dig, you'll find that the rail line is owned by the same corporation that basically owns the EPA and our government. Vanguard. Vanguard, Blackrock and State Street own most of the wealth and assets around the globe.
And around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
You lost me on this one, gato. I'm a huge fan, but while not wanting to get into the 'making it OK' debate, you stepped into it full-force. The many 'expert' (I hate that word!) analyses of this chemical spill accident and the absurd decision to 'detonate the vinyl chloride to prevent an explosion' point to a very different picture than you're portraying by quoting your two 'sober, serious experts'. So there's 1,000 derailments a year/3 per day. By any factor that shouldn't be OK with a functioning properly-managed and operated infrastructure. But it seems you're trying to moderate emotional reaction and play the whole thing down more than seeing this catastrophe for what it is - which is only becoming clearer as its effects play out and information becomes available.
so, you guys realize i'm not taking a position on that, yes?
we can argue about what kind of risk/pollution levels we desire and the trade offs inherent in seeking them and there is lots of room for sane, reasonable people to have differing views on where the slider should reside.
my point here is that this sort of event is neither rare, nor systemically or regionally threatening.
it's localized and small relative to overall issues.
personally, i'd like to see the US cleaner and with tight liability for creating messes like this.
but given the way people online are calling this "the greatest ecological calamity in a century" and fretting about poisoning the whole mississippi river, i think some perspective is warranted
"but given the way people online are calling this "the greatest ecological calamity in a century" and fretting about poisoning the whole mississippi river, i think some perspective is warranted"
but it still sounds like you are all "calm down everyone... nothing really to see here", which is why so many people are responding negatively to this article, it seems.
I think the nuanced approach is: this is horrible, especially for locals, and especially for lack of trust in things that matter to ordinary citizens, i.e. meaning of "safe", the faith in our infrastructure (i.e. I had no idea there were so many derailments... why isn't that more of a focus? Why do we send billions of $$ to the other side of the world when we could apply it here to make trains safer, or responses better... like maybe fire _extinguishing_ tools/techniques), and much more.
I think the other piece is that this hits close to home for so many... some _literally_ close to home.
The earth quake in Syria/Turkey is horrible... probably even more horrible than this from a variety of metrics... but it's "way over there". I'm not saying that because I'm proud of it, but just because it's the truth, sadly. That's how my emotions and rationalizations roll. This railway catastrophe is nearby... and for better or worse, that seems to carry more weight, at least more emotional/mental weight.
Anyway, keep doing the great work you do, Gato. I just thought I'd share more of my thoughts and perspective here.
I was learning about fallacies in high school and found some kind of bug in the french bread, which made me never want to buy that kind of bread again, despite knowing the name for the fallacy of that kind of thinking. What is visceral and emotional and which boot-straps perfectly onto the inflammatory fear charged atmosphere we all live in now might be overlain with the mapping of the fallacy. Both exist and we can hold these mutually exclusive positions in our minds even if we can't fully let go of one or the other of them. That's the value, for me, of reading this perspective about the base rate. There was a derailment in Michigan today and I immediately felt "whoa, a pattern," when it is obviously not, based on the clarity here. I'll still be suspicious with my limbic system capitalized but I can also hold onto the idea that I am reacting nonrationally. My two derailments worth lol.
There have also been derailments in the past week or so in South Carolina, Texas, Arizona, and Louisiana as well. The difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth? About 6 months.
And take it from a local. The East Palestine disaster is FAR, FAR worse than anything you've read. I'm 19 miles away and I already put my home up for sale.
Thank you for a sound and reasonable response. This was a horrible accident and will effect that area long term. I agree perspective is warranted and needed. EPA under administration is as worthless as all of Biden’s other agencies--ran by fools who check off some equity box without any actual ability to manage their responsibilities.
What I love most about this thread is that most everyone on here are gato fans, but when you disagree you come out and make your case in droves. God bless the free thinkers.
I will say that I don't at all think that you're trying to downplay the suffering of the residents but rather the hysteria of "trains are suddenly crashing all over the place and they never really have before." It's indeed a rubbery tightrope to walk, Gato.
Good gawd...well, you tried, anyhow, to bring some rational, tempered perspective to this. I've given up. Every *conservative* website, social media account is awash in actual breathless fear porn---that is as addictive as the sex porn--- that is out of scale with reality. Unless you take the knee and profess that this is *our Chernobyl*, you will be savaged. There is much lesson to be taken from the story of Chicken Little....and I even hesitate to mention 'chicken', too...
Arguing for perspective is rational, no doubt. I think this post has actually helped me understand that, yes, there's lots of accidents and some are serious. Anyone who knows probability and stats will know that a normal base rate of 1,000 derailments with perhaps 10% resulting in leaks that means 1 per month can't predict that 4 would happen in any particular month. Especially when explosions in such events only occurs every 2 to 3 years. But it is legitimately suspicious, it is important to observe trends. It could be a signal that society or even just you individually needs to take action. The balance with objectivity is you can push too far, willfully ignoring your intuition.
I believe the locals have figured that out, even now. Yep, a definite "Chernobyl." The bastards that did the "controlled burn" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) did so without any regard for human life. Or animal life as well. The damage, both ecological and economic here, is BAD. Really bad. And it's just the beginning.
Only a couple of cars exploded in the initial derailment. Flames shot 100 feet in the air. And oddly, no shrapnel. How bout that. The rest of cars were drained and emptied AFTER this. And the chemicals were far worse than the vinyl chloride. The govt and rail lines are evil bastards, that have taken no responsibility for even the short term effects, let alone the long term.
I'm moving. Putting my home up for sale, and I'm gone! And I'm UPSTREAM from East Palestine. 19 miles away and even my yard has no more wild life, and my Mourning Doves are gone. I miss them, they nest every year outside my window, and they're gone. Eerily silent with no birds.
Hey, talk to the locals. The ecological as well as economic damage here is beyond anything you'll hear of in the news. Dead wild life, sick and dying live stock and dead chickens up to 50 and even 100 miles away. No birds. Eerily silent. Dead fish and frogs many miles UPSTREAM from the crash. Crops, pastures and farmland all contaminated. Dead pets. Sick people. What the hell is wrong with you? Surely you know better than the trust the govt. , the EPA or the rail line?
The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that woke up the locals and there were flames 100 feet in the air BEFORE that controlled burn. But that was from a couple of cars. And guess what? No "shrapnel" from the initial explosion. But who knows what burned?
And then they empty and burn the other 10 or so cars with even worse chemicals and do the "controlled" burn????? That was a disgustingly evil, criminal act, with no concern for human or any other life.
I can begin to describe the damage done. So stop spreading lies and admit to the extent of this catastrophe. Your posts are belittling to those that are suffering right now. It's bad. REALLY bad. So just stop.
The hell it isn't rare. You have NO idea in hell how bad it is here, or the already wide-spread ecological and economic damage done.
Around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
All the birds are one. Eerily silent now. I miss the Mourning Doves that nest outside my window each year. They had already started a new nest, but they're gone now. Dead wild life, pets, dead chickens and livestock, polluted and contaminated crops, pastures, and the streams are full of dead fish and frogs. People getting sick.
The EPA and government will never admit to what they've done here with their "controlled" burn. Obviously there is no such thing.
Sorry, but you are totally ignorant of the facts and extent of the short term and long term damage done here. If you think it's minimal, how bout you buy my house, cheap? Stop spreading your lies. It's belittling to those who suffer the damage.
The damage is FAR more widespread than you are obviously aware of. Farms 50 and even 100 miles away have sick live stock, dead chickens, and contaminated crops and pastures. I can't begin to estimate the economic damage to local farms that have been in families for many generations, and of course, property values. And since the Ohio and all major tributaries around here are full of dead fish, and the Ohio flows down to the Mississippi, expect contamination, which does NOT go away, to end up as far south as Louisiana. That has already been forcast.
Stop with the uneducated and uniformed OPINIONS. Look for posts from the locals. It's FAR FAR worse here than you'll ever read about. BIG TIME COVER UP. The bastards are not taking any responsibility for the damage they've done here with their criminal "burn."
Hey, talk to the locals. The ecological as well as economic damage here is beyond anything you'll hear of in the news. Dead wild life, sick and dying live stock and dead chickens up to 50 and even 100 miles away. No birds. Eerily silent. Dead fish and frogs many miles UPSTREAM from the crash. Crops, pastures and farmland all contaminated. Dead pets. Sick people. What the hell is wrong with you? Surely you know better than the trust the govt. , the EPA or the rail line?
The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that woke up the locals and there were flames 100 feet in the air BEFORE that controlled burn. But that was from a couple of cars. And guess what? No "shrapnel" from the initial explosion. But who knows what burned?
And then they empty and burn the other 10 or so cars with even worse chemicals and do the "controlled" burn????? That was a disgustingly evil, criminal act, with no concern for human or any other life.
I can begin to describe the damage done. So stop spreading lies and admit to the extent of this catastrophe. Your posts are belittling to those that are suffering right now. It's bad. REALLY bad. So just stop.
I find your take rather blasé. When I was a kid we could drink out of the creeks and spring runs anywhere, now there are serious worries of getting sick or poisoned. At that time cancer rate was 1 in 10 now almost 1 in 2. Why? Because of the chemicals in the environment are such our bodies have never seen before.
So tell me when are those profiting from poisoning the ground water, the air and the food we eat, going to start paying the freight? They can't. To clean up Ground water to pristine conditions would break the bank.
I was raised "If you can't pay for it, don't do it". I live by it to the best of my ability. I don't use chemicals because they will eventually get into the ground water, air and/or food. I can't pay for the consequence.
But since we give a pass to Pharma with regards to gene therapy injectables, why not all of industry. Why should they pay for the *uckups they do. WEF is working on billing to average joe, letting the wealthy and industry skate.
and i must confess to finding yours rather myopic.
the flip side is, of course, "enjoy returning to the living standards of 1800."
seems like people always leave that part out and want all the wealth and trappings of a modern technological society but without the price.
but it doesn't work like that.
there's lots of room for people to disagree about where you want to move the slider of higher costs and less abundance in exchange for cleaner X, but the simple fact is that the trade off is going to exist.
While you say I am myopic you fail to demonstrate the case. You also assume that I am not willing to pay the price.
I have been willing my entire life time. But one needs to be rich to do so. Why? To give up the BS BETTER LIVING THROUGH CHEMISTRY and find pristine land to live the 1800s life style, one needs to be rich. One cannot afford to live on land that is pristine if one is middle to low middle class. I don't mean with photovoltaics and other niceties. Just simple low tech living.
So I have done the next best thing.
> I was raised "If you can't pay for it, don't do it". I live by it to the best of my ability. I don't use chemicals because they will eventually get into the ground water, air and/or food. I can't pay for the consequence.
So you didn't critique the fact that I am in fact doing my best to minimize my harm to the Earth. My wife and I have found a small piece of land that we can live a subsistence level life. We almost live that now. But when we actually live that way, we will no longer have internet, cell phone electric power etc. I am fine with that and so is she. So there will be no way to publish the results.
I am surprised you didn't volunteer to move to East Palestine Ohio to enjoy the many benefits of vinyl chloride and the open air incineration of vinyl chloride, and the many wonderful chemical by products of such open air incineration.
Those people who are so enraged have no reason to be. The pets die by why worry about that, birds and fish die, what is not to like. Seems like an excellent place for all the folks that love better living through chemistry to move to. Pay a premium for the right to live in such a paradise and allow the folks that don't get it to leave and find the digs they would like.
I think those that make this issue small should have a large helping of life seasoned with vinyl chloride and chemical by products from East Palestine.
Wow. So you mean we here in Europe with our magnitudes harder environmental restrictions for industry and production et c live at a year 1800 standard?
Get a grip Gato, you're smarter than that. Or do you actually believe that everything here was sackcloth and dirt until 1918?
Excellent comment! 💥I’m 59 and I never thought I had to worry about water. We got a water filter a couple years ago...you can sure taste the difference and the water doesn’t smell like a swimming pool. Even the cat drinks more water.
I had cancer last August, screw that! I realize, sadly at my age, these f-ers don’t give a damn about anything but money.
Get back at all of these evil people and live healthy and live long! 🤬
I realized this back in the late 1960s. Sadly I haven't been able to generate much interest over the years. There was interest though. But the media as you know is controlled resulting in the quashing of dissent.
Monsanto has not paid yet. It would make the news if they had. The judge reduced the amount the Jury awarded Dewayne Johnson.
If you or I don't pay a traffic fine an arrest warrant will be served and we will be arrested and put in Jail. Monsanto became a part of Bayer and didn't even get their hands slapped for not paying Mr. Johnson
It's laughable that ElGato thinks that Bloomberg reported real news is recently as 2014 🤦 . El Gato, has your account been hacked, or is this an early April 1st post?
Is it possible to be like "hey, this actually happens all the time but this still really sucks and is horrible"? I defo got that from Doomberg as well as the bad cat.
You maybe right, it is samsara after all. However when it rains, snows etc. We build a shelter. We help our neighbors. We share what we have.
That is the way of simple common folk. That is not the way of the super rich. If it were there would be no destruction of the Earth or all the living on it.
I don't live far from the derailment/vinyl chloride spill south of the Philadelphia Airport in 2012 that Doomberg describes in his article. It was vented into the atmosphere (bad enough) not burned. The video below shows an atmospheric inversion that created a low "cloud" of the burned chemicals that crossed into Pennsylvania. We have no idea what the consequences will be for those people.
The derailment was unacceptable, especially now that we have video evidence that a car was on fire for about 20 minutes before the derailment.
I agree and most of the derailments are likely very minor and happen at the rail yard, not on actual track. Looking at the data in detail, if something falls off a rail car that counts as a derailment.
I think a better statistic to look at is “explosion”. The FRA does track this and the last one was recorded in 2019. So while the OH derailment didn’t directly result in an explosion I would say that it’s probably better aligned with that metric than a simple derailment.
According to what I've read and heard, they decided to burn the vinyl chloride. It didn't burn in the immediate aftermath of the derailment. Whether they anticipated the explosion or the atmospheric inversion that created a low level toxic "cloud" floating into Pennsylvania is another issue. At the very least, they were grossly incompetent in their "response".
If you trust the experts, you would have taken the vaccine.
I went through a situation at work (medical research center) where we were forced to fumigate our building with chlorine dioxide. After the fumigation, we were given the all clear to go back into the building. The 'experts' had tested the air and found no traces. Nearly everyone in the facility began immediately reporting symptoms such as, sore throat, watering eyes, nausea, shortness of breath among others. Our director sent us home.
We were then subjected to months of gaslighting (there is nothing wrong, everything is fine, you are complaining about an odor, we have tested and everything is safe). The departments that are supposed to make sure the workplace is safe refused to take our claims seriously. They kept saying we were complaining about an odor and would not acknowledge that we were reporting physical symptoms. It was like living in the twilight zone. And very eye opening.
Finally a colleague (vice chair of the dept of neurosurgery, no less) decided to get his throat looked at after continuing to feel pain whenever he went back into the building. The doctor said he had a chemical burn in his throat. A chemical burn in his throat. After this, and much complaining we finally got some mitigation efforts.
This was a center that studied head injury and cardiac arrest, we lost months of time with no research being done. Our reports of serious physical side effects from exposure in our work place to a "safe" chemical were not listened to or taken seriously by the 'experts.' So please forgive me if I am not inclined to take the claims of 'experts' seriously.
You are exactly right. Take it from the locals, the damage here is FAR worse than anything you've read. The govt, EPA and rail line are evil bastards for what they have done.
Calling upon my chemist background, I would challenge the notion that burning hazardous chemicals from a rail spill is the proper way to dispose and contain. Especially one so close to humans. Clearly, there is an effect on the local wildlife, what makes you think humans can just go about their day without concern? Ever notice these things never seem to happen in the white, liberal neighborhoods of say, Cambridge, MA? Or Brooklyn? Or Pacific Heights? In reviewing this, maybe try turning your bullshit meter back on?
Some trainwrecks are more damaging than others. Does that 1000 per year include the near continuous trainwreck in Washington DC and most state capitols?
Tuckers Show last night had an expert on who said he’d never heard of any railway burning these chemicals. They’ve basically nuked East Palestine and telling them what they see, smell and feel, isn’t happening. None of this is a laughing matter, the country is being flushed all over, every agency run by incompetent a$$holes, and we laugh as Rome burns.
Pump it - the entire contaminated slurry - into tanker trucks ASAP to protect the water tabe and to prevent air pollution. And drive to the already pre-existing toxic spill/waste handling facility.
Fully doable to. Curious indeed why other (post)industrial nations can do things like that but not the US.
I don't think so actually. I think vinyl chloride's volatile, like acetone and very flammable. Heavy explosive vapor than lays on the ground unless it's windy. Some of it might be pumped up perhaps.
How you see depends entirely what you're paying for. When it's not your skin in the game, well, it's an entirely different game.
Much more volatile than acetone, actually. Vinyl chloride is a gas at room temperature, its boiling point at standard pressure is -13 C or +8 F. About twice as dense as air.
If the containment vessel is undamaged, and you can access it, probably best to offload into a tank truck. If it has holes in it, your options are more limited.
There is no good solution to messes like these. Only ones that are more or less bad. In situations like this, people (often without relevant training) make worse choices than they might have.
Monday morning quarterbacking can't fix those mistakes.
Believe me, us locals would have rathered they pumped up what they could, and close the rail line down to contain the contamination. The damage they did with the "controlled" burn (an oxymoron if ever there was one) to the ecological system as well as economic, is beyond belief. And much more wide spread than the media has admitted to. I'm moving as soon as possible, and I'm almost 20 miles UPSTREAM. No birds or critters in my yard anymore. Sick pets. And streams full dead fish, even a mile from here. The bastards. EVIL bastards.
I have to trust your testimony because you are there. However, to me this is strong evidence that there is something more going on here than a few cars of vinyl chloride. As dangerous chemicals go, VC is middle-of-the road -- flammable, not acutely toxic, combustion products (primarily hydrogen chloride) more annoying than dangerous in modest concentrations.
The effects that you -- and others -- are reporting indicate that something else is in this mix, something much more sinister that for some reason, 'everyone' seems to want to keep 'under the rug.'
Normally with a situation like this there is an emergency coordination center set up, with designated spokespeople who make regular announcements and inform the public about the dangers, what they can do to protect themselves, and what is being done in the emergency response to take care of the situation.
In this case, crickets -- the silence is deafening. It really does make one wonder what the hell is going on with the USA these days. Not long ago the response would have been like Rikard describes in Norway. Early in my days, I worked on the 'company railroad' at Dow Chemical in what was at the time (and may still be) the world's largest single chemical complex in one fenced compound. Mostly basic industrial chemicals, all of them hazardous in one way or another, and even us summer hires got a complete hazmat rundown before they ever let us out the door. (This was in 1974, FWIW.) Even us green-behind-the-ears college boys knew enough to be careful around the chemicals, because a tank-car load of just about any of them would cause a pretty significant event if it got loose in town -- our home town. We always, always had our eyes out for anything unusual. It was just how it was done.
How things can have gotten so bad truly is amazing, and not in a good way. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you, I know it's not much but it's all I can offer.
Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated. Yes, it seems that dioxin is a major concern. And the manifest that the EPA first posted contained many dangerous chemicals, including phosgene, the WW1 chemical used to kill tens of thousands of soldiers, and much more. There is a whole lot more going on that the media is silent about, and that the rail road and govt. are not taking any responsibility for. Obviously, from the dead wildlife and livestock, as well as no birds, dead fish and sick people for miles around the crash site, the locals are well aware of a major cover up. There is no way in hell that the "experts" were unaware of the consequences of their "controlled" burn. The total disregard for life, especially human life, is beyond belief.
The government has more than enough technology to dispose of dangerous chemicals without doing a "controlled burn." An oxymoron if I ever heard one. What they have done to this area to get their rail line open is criminal. And it's no coincidence that we are no longer food independent. No more local farms or hunting. I only went to the food store for occasional tuna, bleach and toilet paper. Farms that have been in families for generations will go out of business as well. The bastards are not telling the full story, or taking any responsibility for the ecological or economic disaster here. Evil, all of them. The govt., the EPA, the rail lines and the media. Bastards, all of them.
But as a non-expert, I don't know if there are reasons why this either wasn't done or couldn't have been done.
I get that some of the train was on fire. And I get that it presented a clear and immediate threat, but then it becomes a threat exchange/engagement. And there are people whose _very job_ is to do dangerous things. Do we say to smoke jumpers, "you know, fires are dangerous, so maybe you shouldn't jump out of this plane"?
Perhaps it's that all the brave souls resisted the pandemic mandates and were summarily fired, leaving the sheeple left. And they opted to back away and ignite it all, rather than risk life/limb to fight it all.
I dunno. Now that I read what I just wrote there, it's a bit harsh (and I definitely don't mean to denigrate _any_ first responders), but it's how I feel right now.
Rush train engines to the spot, while hazmat detaches what they can and tow undamaged still on the tracks cars away from the scene. If safe, send in tankers to pump out the spill. Immediately secure the groundwater systems from contamination.
We've built up systems and response since the 1970s, including rules and regs, so that stuff like this can't happen (barring actual sabotage).
That is how it would have been done here. That is how our personnel for these kinds of events train.
Of course, here the response wouldn't be contingent on the company only thinking of covering their ass and not having to spend money, and even in the most remote areas the response time would be under an hour from the first alert (when the initial car caught fire), partly because our military and civil defence is tied into emergency response services.
Not having third world nation railroadsystems due to corporate greed and department grift also helps.
Gato has misconstrued the base rate fallacy: even if about a thousand incidents a year are classified as derailments, are all those derailments the same type and kind of accident as the one in East Palestine? No. Not even close. And not even all chemical spills come close to being the same kind, type or magnitude.
What Gato is doing is the same kind of thing anti-nuclear activists do when they lump Fukushima with Chernobyl with Three Mile Island with the total number of incidents reported from nuclear powerplants (where any fluctutation outside safety parameters gets reported).
He must be conscious he is doing it. I wonder why he does it? I hadn't pegged him as a "be contrary to be cool"-personality type.
You are exactly right. The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that shot flames 100 feet in the air. Haven't heard any of that from the media or EPA. What burned? Who knows. But it was only a couple of cars initially. And no shrapnel. How bout that. The damage done from that completely irresponsible and unnecessary "controlled" burn is criminal beyond belief. The total disregard for animal and especially human life is beyond evil. They will never admit to the damage done, neither ecological nor economic. And it's MASSIVE. They are EVIL bastards, all of them.
Make it non-toxic??? At best, less toxic. Oh, I'm sure it's all a field of roses now.
It's rather like Pfizer's situation. Avoid every liability, deny everything. Admit nothing. Take as much as you can and run. They have no skin in those people's game. Get the rail line back in service and forget about it. I don't get why you care if the vax is killing millions.
Maybe burning was not a terrible decision in the moment. Let's see it any medical, environmental and economic followup is done. I seriously doubt it.
“Following new modeling information conducted this morning by the Ohio National Guard and U.S. Department of Defense, Ohio Governor Mike DeWine and Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro are ordering an immediate evacuation in a one-mile by two-mile area surrounding East Palestine which includes parts of both Ohio and Pennsylvania.
The vinyl chloride contents of five rail cars are currently unstable and could potentially explode, causing deadly disbursement of shrapnel and toxic fumes. To alleviate the risk of uncontrollable shrapnel from an explosion, Norfolk Southern Railroad is planning a controlled release of the vinyl chloride at approximately 3:30 p.m. today.”
This is the quote from Doomberg’s article that gave me pause...maybe you and Doomberg are correct in your assessments, but the words “modeling”, “Dept of Defence” and “Mike DeSwine” are three giant red flags. I just have to assume all three are liars until proven otherwise.
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
It is 100% the correct decision if you are the rail road company faced with massive clean up costs - burn it off into the atmosphere - someone else's problem now. This has more to do with the bottom line than best practices.
Yeap. And the same logic that's creating massive profits for Pfizer. Kind of telling that Gato's all for it here with the same nameless "experts" playbook.
If thousands of people die suddenly and the retort is "it is NOT the vaccine" then maybe we should apply same thinking to the fox and the fish. It wasn't the train crash that caused them to die, that is just a coincidence.
I think it just happens to be coincidentally and tangentially beneficial to the biden regime to have made up the "ufo shootdowns" to distract from the Nordstream sabotage bombshell.....it just happened to distract from a very bad environmental spill as well.
Fox Mulder : [Mulder begins to summarize the grand conspiracy theory] No sooner had we defeated Germany than a new threat started appearing in skies over America, drawn to Earth by the latest threat to extinction: the H-bomb. Explosions acting as transducers, drawing alien life forms through wormholes in spaceships using electrogravitic propulsion. Advanced extraterrestrial species visiting us, concerned for mankind and the threat of our self-destruction, forestalling our annihilation through their own self-sacrifice. The crashes at Roswell. More importantly, places like Aztec. World leaders signed secret memos directing scientific studies of alien technology and biochemistry. Classified studies were done at military installations S4, Groom Lake, Wright-Patterson and Dulce, extracting alien tissue. Tests were done on unsuspecting human subjects, in elaborately staged abductions in craft using alien technology recovered from the downed saucers... including human hybridization through gene editing and forced implantation of alien embryos.
Sveta : Why do such a thing and lie about it... our own government?
Fox Mulder : Your own government lies as a matter of course, as a matter of policy... the Tuskegee experiments on black men in the '30s; Henrietta Lacks.
Sveta : What are they trying to do?
Dana Scully : That's the missing piece.
Tad O'Malley : But it's not hard to imagine... a government hiding, hoarding... alien technology for 70 years, at the expense of human life and the future of the planet. Driven not only by corporate greed, but... a darker objective.
Fox Mulder : The takeover of America.
Tad O'Malley : And then the world itself, by any means necessary, however violent... or cruel... or efficient. By severe drought brought on by weather wars conducted secretly using aerial contaminants and high-altitude electromagnetic waves, in a state of perpetual war to create problem-reaction-solution scenarios to distract, enrage and enslave American citizens at home with tools like the Patriot Act and the National Defense Authorization Act, which abridged the Constitution in the name of national security. The militarization of police forces in cities across the U.S. The building of prison camps by the Federal Emergency Management Agency with no stated purpose. The corporate takeover of food and agriculture, pharmaceuticals and health care, even the military, in clandestine agendas, to fatten, dull, sicken and control a populace already consumed by consumerism.
[President George W. Bush in montage clip: "And I encourage you all to go shopping more."]
Tad O'Malley : A government that taps your phone, collects your data and monitors your whereabouts with impunity. A government preparing to use that data against you when it strikes and the final takeover begins.
Dana Scully : The takeover of America.
Tad O'Malley : By a well-oiled and well-armed multinational group of elites that will cull, kill and subjugate.
Dana Scully : Happening as we sit here.
Tad O'Malley : It's happening all around us.
Fox Mulder : The other shoe waiting to drop.
Tad O'Malley : It'll probably start on a Friday. The banks will announce a security action necessitating their computers to go offline all weekend.
Fox Mulder : Digital money will disappear.
Sveta : They can just steal your money?
Fox Mulder : Followed by the detonation of strategic electromagnetic pulse bombs to knock out major grids.
Tad O'Malley : What will seem like an attack on America by terrorists or Russia.
Fox Mulder : Or a simulated alien invasion using alien replica vehicles that exist and are already in use.
Dana Scully : [skeptical] An alien invasion of the U.S.
If it's not a hive they created, they infiltrate to sterilize, coopt &/or sabotage, as with Oathkeepers and so many other groups. Check out "The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's manufactured war on terror." Written by a Mother Jones leftie, so take parts of it with a grain of salt, but still very revealing.
Check out David T. Hardy's book "I'm from the Government and I'm Here to Kill You: The True Human Cost of Official Negligence." Very relevant to all his, best book I've read in years.
You need to talk to more locals. I live less than 19 miles from there, and pets in this area, and people are already suffering symptoms of exposure. Even a mile from me, dead frogs and fish in the river. And in places you can see a film on the water. And we are UPstream. Air borne clouds dropped acid rain and other chemicals. For easily many miles, dead dear, fox, and coyotes. No birds left. Chickens dead. Those left stopped laying eggs. Livestock getting sick. My friend was told it was safe to go home, and didn't last an hour. His eyes were filmy and oozing, headaches, and his face puffed up. He left again. His cat is really sick. East Palestine is not an exaggeration. Here is what we KNOW of the chemicals that spread for over 50 miles.
Part of “Controlled Burn” Get Physical now -Establish medical condition/records now for later
Vinyl Chloride - When burned, produces carbon monoxide, phosgene, & hydrogen chloride. Carbon monoxide is a poisonous gas that can cause asphyxiation at toxic levels.
Butyl acrylate - industrial chemical used to make paints & plastics. Inhaled, it can cause coughing, wheezing, & shortness of breath. Exposures can lead to headaches, dizziness, nausea, & vomiting.
Benzene - There were 2 cars of benzene, a highly flammable liquid. Inhalation may cause incapacitation, irritation to the eyes, skin, & pulmonary organs.
Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether - Chemical solvent irritates the eyes, skin, & respiratory tract: in high doses may affect the central nervous system, blood, kidneys, & liver.
Ethyl hexyl acrylate – Used in paint - When inhaled, ethylhexyl acrylate irritates the nose, throat, & even the lungs, causing coughing & shortness of breath. (Found in Little Beaver Creek, PA – a mile or so from my house – UPSTREAM from the derailment)
Isobutylene – used in aviation fuel - In its liquid form it can cause frostbite. In vapor form, can cause dizziness & headaches, as well as coma or death in high doses. Isobutylene is regarded to be of the same hazard level as vinyl chloride.
Phosgene – WWI Chemical warfare - a toxic gas used extensively in World War I as a choking agent, killing tens of thousands of soldiers. For some people, it will smell like freshly cut grass.
Benzo(a)anthracene &
Chrysene are probable carcinogens &
Phenol is an irritant. All the last 3 are also very toxic to aquatic life (1, 2, 3).
Not part of “controlled burn,” but burned in the initial explosion/fire:
POLYETHYLENE was destroyed by the initial fire, in the explosion caused by the derailment, so not part of the “controlled burn,” but certainly burned up in the initial explosion when the train derailed. It is made from the polymerization of ethylene.
PROPYLENE GLYCOL - tank breached/lost most of load (part of “controlled burn” since contents leaked due to derailment)
DIPROPYLENE GLLYCOL – as per EPA – 1 car: fire impingement/no signs of tank breach – 2nd car - had small leak from BOV, unknown amount of product in car
PETROLEUM LUBE OIL – double tank breached/lost most of load and more “flame impinged, small leak from top fittings, unknown amount left in tank”
Wow, thank you for sharing this Kathleen. This is indeed tragic.
I live in Northern Virginia, about 280 miles east south east down I-76
This is sad an just a really horrible situation.
They say "It's the place you want to be" http://eastpalestine-oh.gov/
really very very sad
It's right on the border of Ohio and PA. The crash was behind the gas station I used, which is literally about 100 feet from the border. Since gas is quite a bit cheaper in Ohio (PA tax is ridiculous), many Pennsylvanians drive over the border, and that was a busy gas station. It's a quiet, sleepy little town surrounded by farmland, a big state park, and woods.
My main concern for those in East Palestine and surrounding areas, is that the local farmers, and there are a lot, are losing livestock and chickens, pasture and crops, all of which are becoming contaminated. Farms and businesses that have been in families for generations are in danger of going bankrupt. That is not fair, because I haven't heard the government taking any responsibility for this. They did nothing wrong.
And of course, we had a lot of autonomy pertaining to food. Hunting and local farms provided all kinds of chicken, pork and beef. Eggs, milk, cream, yogurt, cheese, honey, maple syrup, etc. Now that all these farms are contaminated, and hunting is out of the question, we are more dependent on big chain food stores and the government.
I'm sorry, but I really think all this is meticulously planned. Even the "White Noise" movie should make anyone suspicious. Plus the EPA quietly raised the safe exposure rate for vinyl chloride a few months ago.
The difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth? About 6 months. For real.
Want more? Are you familiar with the MyID digital health screening bracelets they decided to experiment with in the same locale just last month...?
No, but it doesn't surprise me. Like the new medical codes for UNvaxxed and UNDERvaxxed people. And digital IDs for your children's health records. Bad, bad stuff.
take a look: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
I do too. It just seems too coincidental that yet more farmland and livestock is being destroyed. I guess you can only burn down so many food processing plants and chicken farms and crash planes into them only so many times before even the dumbest liberal agrees with you. I had hear that these Ohians were refusing to sell their land even at inflated offers.
You are so right. All in preparation for the "great reset"
and the push for CBDC. Central Bank Digital Currency.
Benzene is a known carcinogen.
Which the FDA allowed to be placed in hand sanitizer during the scamdemic, just an aside
TCDDs (Dioxins) are the 2nd most toxic chemical next to radioactive waste that are next to impossible to clean. The International Joint Commission, comprised of the United States and Canadian governments, has publicly stated that zero exposure to dioxin is the only safe level. There is no permissible exposure limit set by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) [51,52]
TCDD is a solid chemical compound that has NO color or odor and has the appearance of white crystalline needles. [67,68] TCDD can enter your body if you inhale contaminated particulate, have skin or eye contact with contaminated soot, ash, or other materials, or eat contaminated food. [15,16] Due to the fact that ultra-fine smoke particulate matter generated in fires is often less than 3 microns in size (half the size of a red blood cell), inhalation of dioxin laden particulate can easily bypass the lungs and enter the bloodstream. [17]
Thank you for that. The government AND NORFOLD SOUTHERN *should* be taking FULL responsibility for this. Let's see what happens after Trump visits East Palestine this Wednesday. I'm not holding my breath for any of this to come out on the fake news, enemy of the people mainstream media.
Thanks. Is there a source for this?
The EPA published the list of what was in the train cars. I'd have to look it up again, but it's from multiple sources. Us locals know there is a cover up, the bastards. Can't hunt, local farmers are going to go out of business. We had lots of food independence here, but no more!
Thanks
Sie haben einen tollen Name!
Nobel Prize for Mass Murder. Chimera of Josef Mengele & Trofim Lysenko. Put the laughter in manslaughter. Motto: "Vaccination is the leading cause of coincidence." Favorite animals: Beagle puppies, you, your children.
Einen tollen Namen. Bitte!
Danke!
Here are the results of the EPA testing:
https://epaosc.org/site/doc_list.aspx?site_id=15933
If you are in the general area of the explosion, there are some things you can do to mitigate the damage to you:
https://clifhigh.substack.com/p/first-aid-for-ohio
Thank you for that. But bear in mind that the EPA and government hasn't had much to say about dioxin poisoning, which is an even greater concern. Also, there were at least 10 other chemicals of varying toxicity released after the initial explosion and fire (flames shot 100 feet in the air) and later the controlled burn. Some were less toxic than vinyl chloride, but some much worse. Bear in mind that us locals have experienced/observed not only human exposure, but dead pets and livestock, dead wildlife such as deer, coyote, fox, etc. The streams and rivers are full of dead frogs and fish, and I haven't heard any birds for well over a week or more. Farms for 50, even 100 miles away are losing livestock, and of course their pastures and crops have been contaminated. And this is only the short term effects. DON'T DRINK OR WASH WITH THE WATER. Buy bottled. The best thing you can do if you are in the effected area is MOVE. I'm selling my home, and I'm 19 miles away. It's much, MUCH worse than the media is telling anyone, and don't expect the govt. or EPA, or even the railroad, to take responsibility for the damage. Farms in families for generations are about to go bankrupt. The local food supply, even hunting, is no longer as independent as we used to be. Home values in E. Palestine have plummeted already. Who is going to buy there? People and animals are still getting sick. This is much worse than most people are aware of.
This is easy to say: If you are ever in the area of such a chemical fire, the best thing to do would really be evacuate (upwind in this case). I know it'd be hard to not even return to the house to get the cat and dog and your papers, but it might literally be a case of life or death. Those gases are dangerous. You might have to stay away for many days.
I'm not trying to minimize the other likely environmental damage from liquid or solid spills, leakage into ground water, etc. and the inevitable loss of property values. But worrying about PCBs in your well water is a much more manageable problem, than dying a horrible death because you breathed a toxic chemical.
Relevant digression for a second. Before folks get tricked into backing Nikki Haley based on superficials, hope everyone here knows she requires vaccination to attend her meetings, but "no longer" requires masks.
https://twitter.com/catturd2/status/1626210114264006656
Nikki Haley is a WEF Young Global Leader.
Enuf said.
Oh, and look up the Netflix movie, White Noise. Came out a few months ago about a train derailment near E. Palestine Ohio. One of the extras in the movie actually had to evacuate for real. The globalist government is so evil.
Thanks, I will, since my commie sister's paying for Netflix. Otherwise no way I'd watch it.
Be sure to read David T. Hardy's book. Amazing and very relevant to this spill.
https://www.abebooks.com/9781510722262/Government-Kill-True-Human-Cost-1510722262/plp
Thanks!
Halfway through White Noise. Dark humor. Good though.
take a look at this one!!!: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
I live in PA about 40 miles (as the crow flies) from East Palestine. Our governor, A Dem, was originally dismissive of possible environmental and health concerns. He has since backtracked, A bit, penning A letter to Joe Biden(?) Listing his concerns.
I saw the dead fish, the sick foxes and 6 dead chickens on TV. I'm sincerely NOT being argumentative, but if the animal deaths are as you describe, where is the evidence? Almost everyone has a cell phone, most with a camera.
With that said, I don't concur with El Gato's take. These people experienced an horrific crash in the middle Of the town, were evacuated then quickly unevacuated (after a massive "controlled" burn). The Ohio governor tells residents they should probably use bottled water, then the next day says the water in town is fine. Norfolk Southern avoided A town hall by stating they feared for the safety of its employees. I could go on, but my point is as follows. These people feel abandoned. They do not feel they are getting the straight story from government officials or Norfolk Southern. They do not know who or what to trust. And until this past Monday evening, they could not get the attention of the media, the government, or the railroad. They are feeling ill, and are afraid. And Kathleen's list of the chemicals burned scares me. And burying the debris from the burn? Scares me too.
And the Biden Admin rejected the request for emergency help. Said it didn't qualify. Very sad. I too have friends & family in Pittsburgh.
I live about 18 miles as the crow flies from East Palestine, and I can definitely attest to dead wildlife, chickens, sick live stock and dead frogs and fish. NO birds for 2 weeks, they are just starting to come back.
Thanks for this information. I wish you the best.
Substacks by Dr. Syed Haider and Eric Coppolino both say that the real issue with burning vinyl chloride is the emission of dioxins, which are tremendously toxic even in trace concentrations.
https://syedhaider.substack.com/p/train-wreck-dioxins-from-vinyl-chloride
https://planetwavesfm.substack.com/p/palestine-ohio-train-wreck-its-the
Thanks for pointing out those links. Just as short info for other readers: Dioxins are endocrine disruptors. Endocrine disruptors disturb the hormonal processes in your body: think metabolic illnesses, rewiring cells towards obesity, falling sperm counts and reduced fertility, reduction of masculine and feminine phenotypes, depression and other emotional disorders, sleep disorders, falling energy, cancers. The original level of "safety" for endocrine disruptors was based on cellular processes that did not take into account what is happening in the nucleus, which is impacted at levels thousands of times smaller. These chemicals actually rewrite the epigenetics of cells, meaning that the cell's functions and products can be changed forever. Spend 2 days toughing it out in the environmental disaster? Your cells may be permanently changed.
In the environmental toxicology part of my career I worked with dioxins. They are as dangerous as you point out
Did you see this? Everyone should.
take a look: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Kathleen, the smaller animals had central nervous system shutdown after asphyxiation from hydrochloric acid and phosgene. The levels in the air will eventually taper off; but it’s still soaked into everything, grass, trees, soil, floors. They’ll continue to get sick like us, just faster. The further distance away from East Palestine; the less contamination there will be, which doesn’t equate to safe, just not as bad. Eventually, they will have to admit; a cleanup that would have taken a month was converted to a bomb. Fire and explosion are chemical reactions; new compounds are formed, like acid rain. The vinyl chloride (chloroethene) couldn’t collect in a trench; because it sublimates, like dry ice. Flammable gases are shipped as liquids like propane for stability; but under pressure, so when released they boil and turn to gas. The only problem then is static electricity from the friction of escaping the tank. You’re not going to get liquid from a pressurized tank unless you can transfer it to another pressure tank; so you’re going to get gas, like from a gas grill. Five tanks at 20,000 gallons (around 10 lbs) is about 100,000 gallons or 1,000,000 pounds. Releasing that to the air is admittedly not good; but it’s not as bad as igniting it, this holds true for anything that hits the ground. The problem with burning it; chemicals bond to make new compounds like dioxins, and by-products like phosgene. The phosgene is short-lived; I’ve been overcome, nearly had a heart attack, but it can kill. The dioxins stick around much longer; 30, 50, 100 years. What’s worse; there are hundreds and while not all are carcinogenic, those made from burning chlorine are. So by creating dioxins they transformed a gas cloud that would have been a short-term cancer risk into a permanent one. The hydrogen chloride and phosgene are water soluble; the newly-created dioxins are not, you’ll carry them forever. East Palestine is essentially done, it can never be the same. Maybe 5 ,10 miles; a total loss, and I’m sure there are some other towns that will want to talk to them.
So true. And neither the govt nor the rail line will admit to it and take responsibility. Farms/businesses that have been in families for many generations will go out of business. Food autonomy is gone, with even all wildlife along with streams and pastures and crops contaminated.
And bear in mind that the initial derailment resulted in an explosion with flames shooting 100 feet in the air. A friend witnesses this from his upstairs window, as his home was only a couple blocks away. So what burned in the initial explosion? And if anything, the "controlled burn" was even worse. I don't know how much damage was done in the initial explosion and fire, but I do know it was made FAR worse with the ridiculous "controlled" burn. No excuse for that. The mushroom cloud from the controlled burn looked like the result of an atomic bomb explosion. If anyone has ever seen pictures of that - that's what it looked like. And spread for miles and miles ... This was a criminal act, for sure.
Yes saw pictures... just like FRauDci will never admit he was wrong or that he said one thing then said the exact opposite but then again even Trump never said the jabs were bad.. still wants people to get them.
Sad for them. Have family & friends in Pittsburgh myself!
Have you seen this one? More proof of criminal acts of horrendous magnitude!
take a look: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Also, I don’t mean to downplay the seriousness of the dioxin plume, just comparatively effects from their proximity will differ. Rather than being spread out; the amount being absorbed by anyone remaining there will remain high, resulting in the body’s inability to detox from it.
Yes, I’ve seen it; and there’s no way to restore East Palestine back to the way it was, it just isn’t possible. I saw Pripyat, outside Chernobyl back in late 80’s; and their mistake was washing everything down with fire hoses, which pushed the contamination further down into the ground. The problem here is similar; the weight of so much heavy liquid pushed it down through the soil, now every time it rains it moves down further. I’ve worked in areas like this and others; some superfund sites forty years, and there’s only one way that won’t make it worse. Like you said, you need high temps and the only way that’s possible; you have to demolish structures, trees, everything, haul it in closed bins to an environmental incinerator, this takes months. You have to scrape the top layer of soil, a foot or two, and dig that trench probably twenty feet. Nobody can live there while this is going on; the railroad needs to be rerouted, there’s no sense in moving back, because you never get all of it. The dioxin plume carried some of it away, but there’s more right there. Vinyl chloride is man-made too; but it breaks down eventually, dioxins are more like PCBs or PFAS, so it couldn’t possibly have reached temperatures high enough in open air to render it safe. The updraft from the heat pushes it into cooler air; so it doesn’t burn completely, that’s why the incinerator sequesters it. I’m sorry there’s no better way; but what’s still in the ground there is even worse than what blew away, and unlike the smoke plume this will get worse with time.
Boots on the ground reported two days ago --> www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/ignition-monday-february-13-2023/comment/12770085
🗨 Wednesday still mandated evacuation. Thursday rolls around and now suddenly everything is fine and well with air monitoring on "WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING FOR". Lots of local videos of fish kills, chickens and foxes. Ohio EPA representative when asked about the animals and live stock, "We are here to protect people, not the animals."
Good grief, what an asshat comment from the EPA.
canaries in a coal mine.
People are animals, just saying.
They're here to protect their own. Their tribesmen are [purportedly] people. So 🤷
Just sayin' 😜
You insult animals.
These govt. and railroad scum are worse than animals. Even a mongrel dog will defend her own with her life. These scum could care less.
take a look: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
Cincinnati here, our water intakes from the river are closed and we're running on reserves because the main mass of toxic shit is expected to float by us sometime between now and Monday. This is a serious disaster which is causing huge disruptions across the state and will continue to cause disruptions across the country as it continues. I'm in general all for a "wait and see" approach to anything government and media, but this is one of those things which is outright reasonable to be concerned, angry, and demanding action over.
Has anyone that you talked to personally had the water or air tested for any of the chemicals you mentioned? You don't need to wait for the EPA or the state, there are private labs that will test for all the chemicals you mentioned with the option of for information only or legal proceedings (chain of custody & validation considerations).
I just want to know what the truth is and not be flooded with doomsday scenarios that can easily and quickly be proven false. COVID brought into the spotlight that by putting fancy scientific terms on everyday things you can scare people into excessive reactions.
Why should anyone trust the EPA or state? I don't. I've been buying bottled water (not local) for me and my pets. The only thing I trust is my own eyes and ears. Dead wildlife all over. Haven't heard birds in at least 10 days. Sick pets and people. Dead frogs, fish, etc. in all the streams, plus a colorful film in areas. EVERYTHING around here is obviously contaminated. I'm 19 miles away from E.Palestine in western PA, UPSTREAM from there, and the damage to fields, streams, pets, etc. is here too. A stream about a mile from here is full of dead fish. This is truly not only one of the worst ecological disasters in recent decades, but will be a major economical one as well. I'm selling my home and moving before it's too late.
Are you sure that's not also from the Cracker Plant. Friend in Beaver said they are having issues as well?
Nope. I can see the cracker plant from my home across the ohio river. The cracker plant troubles are more of a regulatory kind. Of course, the bejing biden admin is hell bent on shutting these plants down. So I'm not sure what to believe about their accusations. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with the criminal acts committed by the EPA and rail line in East Palestine. That is truly a major economical as well as ecological disaster that will plummet home values, put farms/businesses in families for generations OUT of business, destroy the food autonomy we enjoyed in this area, and even hunting is out of the question now. And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take responsibility for the destruction or the ruin of so many lives and livlihoods. Media involved in MAJOR coverup.
Sorry, tried to add "ecological" to my post and it posted twice.
You can use the ellipsis ... to edit. You can also delete a comment. (Sometimes a PC is friendlier than a mobile screen.)
Tried that. I can delete now, though.
I am your biggest fan, Mr. Gato Malo, but I don't think you understand what is to be upset about here. It is not that there was a derailment. It is not that there was a chemical spill. I got that neither is particularly rare. It is that the situation headed down a path that was the most expedient for the railway, with the endorsement & complicity of the ruling class, that was truly reckless. Please don't think unkindly of me but I do happen to have a PhD in Chemistry, and the idea of purposely voiding a rail car full of a hazardous material for an uncontrolled burn in a populated area with only cursory concern of the locals is criminal. And you're talking with a guy who had a flask of zirconium borohydride blow up in his hand. Why, next thing they'll be forcing us all to take experimental injections!
my understanding is that they were concerned it was going to explode.
did you read the doomberg piece? he's a legit top expert on exactly this.
I read the Doomsberg perspective 3 times, as I have yours.
I respect his - and your - knowledge and scholarly approach as well as his and your wish to not overstate. Hyperbole is an issue, and yes, it takes a toll on lots of levels.
But Doomberg is not in East Palestine, nor (to my knowledge) has he traveled there in the past two weeks and seen with his own eyes and listened with his own ears to the residents and the land. Nor are or have you, El Gato Malo.
In this instance, I believe both of you are understating on principle - and missing the mark with regards to the severity of this chemical spill and 'vent'.
And when you, as above, refer to the Doomsberg piece and identify him as a 'legit top expert on exactly this' - all I can say is, those are precisely the words spoken to me countless times throughout this nonsense 'pandemic' with regards to not being injected, and questioning the reasoning of the so-called Covid narrative. They referred me to 'legit top experts' in the CDC / NIH / blah blah blah.
Legit top experts sometimes miss the mark. In this case, I think you both missed the mark. And I hope I'm wrong - that would delight me. I hope it turns out that I'm overstating this to the max. Time will tell.
Take it from a local. YOU are exactly RIGHT. This is a major ecological disaster, as well as an economic one. Things here are FAR worse than anyone is reporting, and don't expect the govt. or rail line to take responsibility for the lives and livelihoods that have been devastated here. I hate to say it, but all the dead deer, coyote, fox and wildlife, the sick and dying livestock, dead chickens, dead frogs and fish in streams even UPSTREAM from E. Palestine (where I live) and the eerie silence from the absence of birds, dead pets, etc. tells a far worse story than the bastards want to take responsibility for. I read that piece too. It did not contain even the full list of chemicals that the EPA did, nor did it contain many facts. A puff piece by someone paid to lie, like the media. Believe me, it's BAD here. VERY bad.
I believe you, Kathleen. Please take good care. I wish I could say something more helpful, but words aren't really of much use right now. You and yours and everyone affected by this chemical poisoning are in my - and everyone else's - heart. Holding you with much love.
Thank you so much. At least I can move. Special prayers for the local farmers, whose contaminated land and livestock have been in the family for many generations. Such a heart breaking shame for them, as they will literally "lose the farm." I'm so angry at the government and rail lines, this was so uncalled for. That "controlled burn" showed incredible disregard for human life. Thank you for your prayers, they are greatly appreciated.
I read the Doomberg piece ... altho, this -
"For the rest of this piece, we will take their reports, measurements, and commentary at face value. To do otherwise is to assume the EPA would fabricate complex technical data on the fly to deceive the public and protect the very corporate interests they otherwise infuriate with their harsh oversight on a daily basis." seems odd.
Of course they would fabricate whatever, as any alphabet agency would. * They did after 9/11.*
Maybe the EPA sometimes infuriates with oversight, to fill parts of the narrative that have them crusading for sustainability, as the FDA infuriates raw milk producers, supplement companies, and sometimes catches e. coli tainted meat or lettuce and does something good for a change. And the FDA legislates that canned dog food is heated to very high temperatures. But when it serves their masters, they fabricate technical data to deceive the public and protect corporate / and beyond corporate, interests.
I understand that burning to prevent explosion may have been the least - awful choice at the time. *But, still, it's unprecedentedly toxic, the scale of this. Chris Martenson shared toxicology info about the tiny amounts of those chemicals capable of serious shit.
Also The Highwire did great coverage today. **The company used for water testing is known for being as industry friendly and human-health-negligent as covid vaccine clinical trial sites. *And - to get "free water testing" - **Residents have to sign a paper that starts with allowing access to their property to do the test (fair enough), and then says agree to indemnify / not hold liable for damages. And of course, after everyone worse useless masks for one year or two or three, people are lining up to a town hall, and no one is masked - no real respirators, besides the Highwire reporter. https://thehighwire.com/watch/
Understand rail accidents happen all the time, but I think something changed recently, about less time to inspect cars, and ignoring employees saying there aren't enough safety measures ...
I dig gato malo but I really think he’s off on this one. Far more serious than characterized. The other spills may fit the characterization and are the result of sensational reporting. But that’s why they’ve faded from memory already. Palestine is different which is why it’s still getting a ton of local, grassroots reporting. They big media outlets aren’t keeping this alive for ratings. Just the opposite. It’s a real issue. That’s why it’s not going away.
I agree, there's a base rate but the perceived severity scale is uniquely human and isn't objective. In a world of a countless vehicle accidents ones involving a school bus of kids dying is different even if it only marginally changes statistics. There's probably millions of railcar loads of chemicals moved annually and I'm sure a sizeable number derail or even involve accidents. But this one was atypical and the deafening quiet from astroturf environmental activists is particularly telling.
Absolutely. Bear in mind that the rail line is owned by Vanguard/Blackrock, which also owns our EPA and government. True fact.
And something is very different lately. Like all the fires and explosions destroying major chicken/cattle farms and food processing plants lately.
And just a couple of months ago, the EPA raised the "safe" exposure limit to toxins like vinyl chloride. Right before this crash.
Things tell ya things.
The difference between "conspiracy theory" and the "truth?" About 6 months.
"Bear in mind that the rail line is owned by Vanguard/Blackrock"
This is incorrect. Neither Vanguard nor BR have a controlling stake in NS. They collectively own <14% of all NS shares.
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/investor-relations/stock-information/ownership-top-holders.html
Wrong. They own controlling shares. Steer clear of opinions and 2nd hand observations.
The CEO and board of directors are the ones who really control the direction of the company and are the parties at fault here.
All class A stock are 'controlling shares' and I don't believe NS offers class B stock.
Not a 2nd hand opinion, used to be an NS shareholder and voted in their shareholder meetings.
AFIK, generally funds avoid owning controlling shares (>5%). They often hold enough to join with others to get board seats.
I also viewed the Highwire today. What’s happened is extremely serious for the people living there, for waterways etc. They give a full list of the chemicals and don’t deny that what they did afterwards with releasing and burning was definitely the wrong decision, however; the people should be given accommodation and everything they need far away from the site until it is proven safe.
Not gonna happen. They can force these same taxpayers to fork over billions to house illegals in luxury housing, and send tons of money to corrupt officials in Ukraine, but to actually help American citizens providing the tax money?
Nope. Bastards.
Love The Highwire! Nailed it with the a**covering contracts with "Norfolk Southern" and "indemnity" on the same page. Sign on the dotted line please.
"For the rest of this piece, we will take their reports, measurements, and commentary at face value. To do otherwise is to assume the EPA would fabricate complex technical data on the fly to deceive the public and protect the very corporate interests they otherwise infuriate with their harsh oversight on a daily basis."
Res ipsa loquitur.
Jeez, gato. Referring us to “experts” after the last three years. Your points on stats and shark stories are good. Folks in the area have good reason to be concerned, though. Government and media have lost the trust of many. That has to be won back through lots of personal effort. Your piece may be 100% accurate but showing stats to worried people will work only if you have their trust.
His "piece" is woefully uninformed and not the least bit accurate. Just ask the locals.
Kathleen, I share your very real concerns here. I was trying to state that when trust has been weakened or lost, a pile of statistics, even accurate ones, is not likely a successful tactic. My best wishes to you.
Thank you. And agreed. Been DECADES since I've even remotely trusted the government swamp. Which is global. All our agencies are corrupt. The disregard for human life is beyond belief. I can move more easily than those that have had farms in their families generations. None of this is being handled fairly or honestly. And the coverup is MASSIVE.
It was expedient and way less expensive to the rail road company to burn off the toxic chemicals rather than clean them up according to EPA protocol. I think the decision to burn off the box cars had as much to do with $$$ as it did with the volatility of the chemicals. What is clear is that the health & safety of the town's residents was at the bottom of the list of priorities. The fact that the MSM treated this incident as a nothing burger is also suspect.
You are so right. I'm close to there. The whole story is not being told.
https://twitter.com/jdvance1/status/1626305927207854089/mediaviewer
https://twitter.com/jdvance1/status/1626305927207854089/mediaviewer
No way in hell. And the initial derailment already resulted in an explosion with flames 100 feet in the air. As witnessed by those living near the derailment. How come no "schrapnel" damage from that? The "controlled" burn came later. That was a criminal act. That town should have been completely evacuated, and that mess cleaned up WITHOUT burning a dozen toxic chemicals, resulting in dioxin for one. We have the technology to do that safely. This is a major ecological as well as economic disaster for anyone within 100 miles from here. And don't expect the EPA, or rail line to take any responsibility for short term, let alone long term effects.
It's my understanding that the semi-controlled burn was the least-worst choice. If a flammable tanker car explodes, it is a rather effective bomb. And, need I point out, you get a fireball at no extra charge. Curious readers might want to explore the meaning of "BLEVE".
You might want to talk with the locals. The initial derailment resulted in an explosion and flames 100 feet in the air. A couple of cars exploded. And no "shrapnel damage." How bout that. My friend was only a block or 2 from the derailment. The explosion woke him, and he witnessed the flames.
So what toxic chemicals were released in the initial explosion? Who knows? No one is talking about that.
Now the initial explosion and fire were bad enough. They should have evacuated everyone and cleaned up the mess WITHOUT any so called "controlled" burn, if there is such a thing. They made matters FAR worse and widespread, just to open up the rail line again. That was an absolute EVIL and CRIMINAL act. And so much more dangerous.
We have the technology to clean up that mess safely WITHOUT toxic chemical burns, which they obviously were not able to control the results of.
Now we have a widespread, MAJOR ecological, as well as economical disaster here that resulted from that criminal "controlled" burn.
And believe me, neither the govt. nor the rail line will admit to the extent of the damage because they are not taking responsibility for it.
There was no need to burn the rest of the chemicals the way they did. No excuse whatsoever, and the disregard for human as well as animal life is beyond belief.
There already was a "fire ball" with the initial crash. The flames could be seen from my friends farm that is over 3 miles away. They thought one of their fields was on fire at first. Where was the "shrapnel" from the first couple of cars that exploded? And vented gas had already leaked out.
Need I point out that the crash was OUTSIDE of town. Behind Leake Oil, about 100 feet from the PA line. I miss going to Leake Oil for my gas and snacks, it's still closed. But I haven't seen any shrapnel damage to the building, and it's about the closest building to the crash.
There were much more responsible ways to contain the damage, the LEAST safe of which was burning it. But to contain the damage the RIGHT way would have entailed shutting down the rail line and the town for much longer, and of course that would have meant that the rail line and EPA admit to and take responsibility for the damage already done.
BULL "effective bomb." That was a sorry @ss excuse to nuke a town (and hundreds of surrounding miles of air, streams, land and life) just to open the rail lines sooner and COVER UP the incident. Plain and simple.
My friends are now ill, having made trips to the emergency room for breathing problems. They have to PAY THEMSELVES to get their well and pasture tested (they board about 20 horses, and have dogs and cats). One dog is showing signs of exposure and a couple of the barn cats are nowhere to be seen. Dead turkeys and fox have been found in the nearby woods. What are the long term effects going to be? Mmmmm? What happens to their livlihoods? And they are in PA about 3 miles from East Palestine. Other farms, animals and people all over this area have been effected.
Believe me. we've all been lied to and there is a MASSIVE cover up going on here.
"...is criminal"
This.
Don't hold your breath waiting for this maladministration to do anything about it. But hey, no one is talking about Joe's seemingly endless caches of classified documents so there's that.
Another effective distraction with unsavory, dangerous consequences.
Not sure if this derailment is much of a distraction, with the way everyone involved, including the media, is ignoring and covering it up. This whole administration is a "distraction" from any truth or "America First" agenda. They can house millions of illegal alien criminals in luxury housing, send billions to corrupt officials in Ukraine, but they can't house those in and around East Palestine in safer areas. The hell with Americans paying taxes. This is shameful, evil and disgusting on SO many levels ... WE ARE BEING REPLACED.
If we only had this much outrage and concern among the approximately 75% covid-shotted citizens (including most likely East Palestinians) who voluntarily injected themselves with unknown and undisclosed chemicals multiple times over the past three years, and continue to poison themselves and their children today. Yes, this train derailment is a chemical poison disaster for certain areas of the US, the covid shot medical tyranny industry is a global chemical poison chernobyl for the entire human species.
https://narrowpath.substack.com/p/pick-your-poison
The major difference between those that CHOSE to get shots and this criminal disaster, is CHOICE. No one in the area CHOSE this.
And there is no evidence that East Palestinians got any more shots than the general population.
And believe me, the derailment is already being called the "East Palestine Chernobyl" for very good reason. Talk to the locals. It's criminal what the EPA and rail lines have done, and are taking no responsibility for.
And the Ohio River runs into the Mississippi, and will contaminate the water and food supply all the way down to Louisiana. Betcha the news isn't covering that one.
You really need to develop some compassion there. I have never even gotten a flu shot, let alone the poison clot shot. Never had the flu either. And there are sick pets, dead wild life, and no birds around my home anymore. Dead frogs and fish in the Little Beaver Creek less than a mile from my home, and I'm 19 miles UPSTREAM from East Palestine.
Don't equate this major ecological, as well as devastating economic disaster here with the clot shot. It's really, REALLY bad here, much worse and more wide spread than the govt. or the rail line is taking responsibility for.
Kathleen - I really appreciate your local and educated views on this disaster and thank you for educating me!
I wonder if part of the shock in all of this is that - perhaps for the first time - American citizens are beginning to realize the EPA doesn't (and hasn't really ever) work(ed) for them. Just like the FDA doesn't protect citizens from Big Pharma. These alphabet agencies are captured. They are shields between consumers/citizens and the corporate lords they exist to protect. This is fascism. American citizens are acceptable collateral damage to them.
Correct
You are exactly right. The 9 most terrifying words in the English language: "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." I think Reagan said that one. So true. I really feel for local farmers, whose land and businesses have been in the family for many generations. They will be going out of business, literally "losing the farm." How heartbreaking is that? Or those with families that can't afford to move. It's criminal what they are done.
https://vivabarneslaw.locals.com/upost/3533906/for-anyone-interested-in-the-chemistry-of-combusted-vinyl-chloride-here-are-a-few-resources-that-exp
Thank you.👆
Rarely disagree with a feline. But you are way off on this one.
First, the number of actual derailments is NOT over 1000 a year. Or 2000. Or 1700. Or whatever is making the rounds on Twitter. It’s actually very low. Like a couple dozen. Actual derailments, not train ‘incidents’. You are comparing apples to oranges.
And then there is this.
Tweet from @tennesseemaga13
Account suspended immediately after tweet was posted.
FOOD FOR THOUGHT- the laws
governing Agenda 2030 land
development allow governments to
seize polluted land and move their
residents into smart cities.
"Important to note - if the land +
water around you is completely
poisoned, you don't get to opt out
of the "smart city" model coming
down the pike. Are you starting to get
the picture.
And, how come all the derailments with chemicals have happened in battleground states. Ohio. (Oh and right on the border with, wait for it, PA). Arizona. Michigan.
Asking for a friend.
I think the main article may have been written prematurely. With respect to the plight of the residents, their retribution will have to come from the class action scumbags - I mean lawyers. This " incident " will be way too lucrative for them to pass up. Locals - as you should know by now - Sign Nothing !
Smart friend. :-)
You are exactly right. And around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
Thanks. In addition to agreeing with all that you said, what I find the most egregious is that the citizens in harms way have been completely abandoned. By those in power who have a duty (or at least used to have a duty) and the media. The county in the crosshairs voted 71% for Trump. The choice to ignore their peril is no coincidence. Had this happened in a deep blue county millions would already have been spent, millions more would be on the way, and media coverage would be none stop. It’s so disgusting, but not surprising.
You got that right.
As I said in my post, and I will repeat for your edification as you seem to miss the point, this is like comparing apples and oranges. In fact, come to think of it, you made my point for me. The 1163 are minor incidents, with the hazmat spills the exception. And that’s the point. 10 last year. 3, or now 4 of them in a week? No coincidence there, eh.
Thanks for clarifying and strengthening my original argument. The feline has it totally wrong this time. It’s rare. But it happens.
some more useful stats per federal railroad admin:
in 2022 in US:
1163 train derailments
292 had hazmat cars
137 had damaged hazmat cars
10 released hazmats
4 led to evacuations
2021 was very similar
FRA has a very cool search tool for this.
https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/OfficeofSafety/publicsite/Query/AccidentByStateRailroadSQL.aspx
I think there's something going on. We've got:
-Never ending pandemic
-Cl0tsh0t deaths
-Cl0tshot disabilities
-raging inflation
-what seems like thousands losing their jobs daily
-the government culling chickens for a "disease" that might or might not be real
-hundreds of food related distribution and manufacturing fires in the past year
-supply chain issues that never seem to be fixed
-supposedly "random" train derailments
-government officials beholden to the WEF
-government officials lying about... almost everything
-eat the bugs, live in a pod, own nothing
Just ONE of these is enough to set off people.
Together, it seems like we're under attack via 5th Generation Unrestricted Warfare.
So very true. I wrote about this in my latest substack article: https://goingsane.substack.com/p/fast-and-furious
Whether it's intentional 5G warfare or just a "natural" consequence of our hyper-connected digital world, it just seems too fast.
I still struggle with the balance. This train crash has tipped me out-of-balance for a few days, which I really don't like. I wrote that substack article in part to just remind myself about why it's important to stay grounded.
I struggle as well and I'm a dyed-in-the-wool cynic. It's my nature to refute things like this, especially when it seems like nearly everyone is all in. But like shibumi points out, this shit seems to be occurring at a rapidly accelerating pace. It's becoming both harder to ignore while also harder get a firm, objective grasp on an "incident" before being clocked in the head with the next.
Maybe it's Karma.
The crash did a WHOLE lot more than throw a few people off balance. Kinda like sayin' "Someone did something ..."
Please stop with the stats, especially el gato, who has enough egg on his face.
THIS IS WHAT MATTERS, HUMAN LIFE just for openers: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
MBA's run everything, cutting corners to save pennies and there is no resilience in our systems. Here's Attorney Renz's take on WW3 if you are interested.
https://tomrenz.substack.com/p/wwiii?r=17wv6g
Fine. So 10 spills in 2022. 4 led to evacs. And now there have been 4, and 4 evacs in 6 weeks. I’m not good at math. But I am pretty good at pattern recognition. And I see one. Or the possibility of one. <1 per month in 2022 and now 4 in 6 weeks in 2023 seems, well, excessive. And 1 evac every 3 months, and in 2023 4 evacs inside of 30 days.
And you don’t think that maybe there’s a pattern here. And all of them coming after the installed occupant started shooting shit down.
You can’t compare the ‘minor’ incidents with the major ones. It’s apples and oranges as I said.
Add in the destruction of dozens of food processing and farm facilities, and I’d be more comfy with a theory that terrorism is occurring regularly, and the current regime is doing nothing. Versus giving them a pass because there were 1163 train incidents last year. There were. But not like what occurred in the past two weeks.
I'm with ya MoodyP!! 💯
So sorry feline friend gato...
I’m wondering what counts as a derailment. I bet the definition is a lot looser than what would make it useful to establish a baseline for the type of derailment that occurred in OH. 3+ derailments per day in the US? That doesn’t even make it pass the smell test. There is no chance it’s that high without the definition of what we would normally call a derailment being far different.
I agree that it’s important to establish a baseline but the definition also matters. Otherwise we’re talking about 2 very different things.
After a little searching (I’m not going to spend a ton of time on this), a derailment doesn’t necessarily mean the train leaves the tracks. I’m fact, if something falls off a train car that counts as a derailment.
Again, as with my last comment, I think we are looking at another “gender pay gap” here. I don’t see reporting on the result of the derailment.
The FRA does track data for “explosion” which is probably closer to what happened in OH than a derailment. The last reported explosion was in 2019.
Your stats are misleading and useless. Just quit.
You have enough egg on your face.
THIS IS WHAT MATTERS. https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
The toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
We don't care what the stats are. What we care about is the massive cover up going on here. The govt. and all it's agencies are totally corrupt. The media does nothing but lie and help the coverup. This swamp govt. of ours can house millions of illegals in luxury housing (with our tax dollars, including those tax dollars from the affected areas) but they can't move Americans to safe housing while the spill is being contained RESPONSIBLY???? ie; NOT BY BURNING IT. Stinks to high heaven. Literally.
Yep. And they can give 185 million to Turkey for “earthquake relief” while the people in Ohio get nothing.
Derailment is anytime the wheel comes off the tracks. Doesn't have to involve tipped-over railcars or chem spills.
Happens quite frequently within yard limits, although less often out on mainline track.
Lots of folks with no railroading experience are suddenly experts on trains.
Copy. I got that. That just reinforces my original point. Massive difference between a hazmat derailment, of which there are on average 10 per year, and a minor derailment in the yard.
10 hazmat per year avg and that number has steadily decreased over the past century. And here we have 4 within a 14 day period, and that is not normal. That was my ‘argument’ with the feline.
The feline got everything wrong this time. You are exactly right. It really seems we are under attack right now. Gee, wonder what's going to happen this summer to make CBDC (Central Bank Digital Currency) mandatory? No vax, they'll cut off your money. No electric car, no money. And forget about food independence with all the poisoning of the environment going on. Don't like what you say on social media? No money. People dying from cancer years down the road? No worries. Just population control. It all stinks to high heaven.
Maybe. Re:CBDC. I’m a long way from convinced. Not as to the eventuality, rather the timeline. The government can’t do anything correctly or on time. It’s been memory holed, but as a point of reference recall the Obamacare fiasco. They had 3+ years to get ready, spent billions of dollars, hired numerous ‘expert’ vendors, and they couldn’t even roll out a website and a sign up process that a 9th grade team project could have completed in a semester.
It’s going to happen eventually. I just don’t think it’s imminent. There are two overarching reasons for a CBDC. 1. Control. 2. Currency devaluation.
Inflation is already taking care of #2. And #1 Is not something they can pull off in a run up to the election. Rigged or not, I just don’t see them taking that risk.
I could be wrong, of course. I just try to assess the probability and I think it’s pretty low.
I’m with you on all the other stuff.
Interesting article here, El Gato... and I read Doomberg's article as well... I also watched Chris' vid over at PP, and read a bunch of other articles. I tend to avoid Twitter as it is just a cesspool of flail (IMO).
I am concerned that you and Doomie have swung to the "it's just fine" camp on this one. Maybe so, but if the last 3 years taught us anything, it's to seriously distrust the Narrative. And wouldn't the EPA fall under "the narrative" to some degree?
I don't trust Doomie's words: "In our experience, the EPA would not look to minimize the severity of an industrial accident of this type. Quite the opposite." I think that was once true, but in this day and age my _baseline_ is to assume all government agencies are either incompetent or compromised or both.
The idea that a "controlled burn" is somehow a better option just smells like a dead fish to me. I'm totally not an expert but that's how I see it.
Anyway, the two big failures here that I wish would get addressed are (1) that for more than 10 days, nobody really knew or cared about this (failure of MSM to take their jobs seriously) until suddenly it was a "bleeder" so lede it, and (2) where the #$% was Buttigeig in all of this?! His absence and silence for nearly 2 weeks should be ample grounds for termination
...if we lived in a sane world.
-sigh-
And my understanding is the controlled burn was based on “models” done by the Dept of Defence. So now we are trusting “models”? And why was it done by the Dept of Defence? I’m with you, smells like dead fish. And as as Ohioan, anything involving Mikie DeSwine has the smell of dead fish.
Now we are trusting models? The whole pandemic response was based on flawed computer models that said hundreds of millions would die practically overnight. The whole climate change agenda is based on models. Practically everything we do these days is based on a predictive model, rather than fact.
For some reason we have the hubris to think our models for all of these incredibly complex systems are in anyway accurate, when we can barely predict the weather tomorrow. We're just so smart now we know everything, we're not dumb like our silly barbaric ancestors.
The science is settled, there's a consensus don'tcha know.
> where the #$% was Buttigeig in all of this?!
And when he does make an appearance he blames Trump. I am no Trump supporter but that made me sick. This administration had two years to make changes in transportation and sat on their hands. When a person takes such an important position, their first responsibility is to the citizens of the USA.
What the #$% was Buttigeig and the Biden administration doing for two years. Apparently blaming Trump. Disgusting.
Stolen elections do have consequences, don’t they?
Yes!! There was a Dem president, Senate, and House for two years. I actually thought that there would be a lot of changes and hopefully some good ones. Nothing. Nothing but medical mandates, censorship, and supporting a war in Ukraine.
EXACTLY right. And if you dig, you'll find that the rail line is owned by the same corporation that basically owns the EPA and our government. Vanguard. Vanguard, Blackrock and State Street own most of the wealth and assets around the globe.
And around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
The evil and treachery go so deep, I wouldn’t even know where to begin. It’s worse than anyone can possibly imagine.
Can you read? El Gato certainly did not say "it's just fine".
You lost me on this one, gato. I'm a huge fan, but while not wanting to get into the 'making it OK' debate, you stepped into it full-force. The many 'expert' (I hate that word!) analyses of this chemical spill accident and the absurd decision to 'detonate the vinyl chloride to prevent an explosion' point to a very different picture than you're portraying by quoting your two 'sober, serious experts'. So there's 1,000 derailments a year/3 per day. By any factor that shouldn't be OK with a functioning properly-managed and operated infrastructure. But it seems you're trying to moderate emotional reaction and play the whole thing down more than seeing this catastrophe for what it is - which is only becoming clearer as its effects play out and information becomes available.
Virus with 99% survival rate= wear a mask for 2 years
Cloud of toxic chemical over your city= no mask needed, go home, you're fine
Exactly. Even when we understand "base rate fallacies", why should we be okay with the base rate of derailments?
so, you guys realize i'm not taking a position on that, yes?
we can argue about what kind of risk/pollution levels we desire and the trade offs inherent in seeking them and there is lots of room for sane, reasonable people to have differing views on where the slider should reside.
my point here is that this sort of event is neither rare, nor systemically or regionally threatening.
it's localized and small relative to overall issues.
personally, i'd like to see the US cleaner and with tight liability for creating messes like this.
but given the way people online are calling this "the greatest ecological calamity in a century" and fretting about poisoning the whole mississippi river, i think some perspective is warranted
That's a good point, gato...
"but given the way people online are calling this "the greatest ecological calamity in a century" and fretting about poisoning the whole mississippi river, i think some perspective is warranted"
but it still sounds like you are all "calm down everyone... nothing really to see here", which is why so many people are responding negatively to this article, it seems.
I think the nuanced approach is: this is horrible, especially for locals, and especially for lack of trust in things that matter to ordinary citizens, i.e. meaning of "safe", the faith in our infrastructure (i.e. I had no idea there were so many derailments... why isn't that more of a focus? Why do we send billions of $$ to the other side of the world when we could apply it here to make trains safer, or responses better... like maybe fire _extinguishing_ tools/techniques), and much more.
I think the other piece is that this hits close to home for so many... some _literally_ close to home.
The earth quake in Syria/Turkey is horrible... probably even more horrible than this from a variety of metrics... but it's "way over there". I'm not saying that because I'm proud of it, but just because it's the truth, sadly. That's how my emotions and rationalizations roll. This railway catastrophe is nearby... and for better or worse, that seems to carry more weight, at least more emotional/mental weight.
Anyway, keep doing the great work you do, Gato. I just thought I'd share more of my thoughts and perspective here.
I was learning about fallacies in high school and found some kind of bug in the french bread, which made me never want to buy that kind of bread again, despite knowing the name for the fallacy of that kind of thinking. What is visceral and emotional and which boot-straps perfectly onto the inflammatory fear charged atmosphere we all live in now might be overlain with the mapping of the fallacy. Both exist and we can hold these mutually exclusive positions in our minds even if we can't fully let go of one or the other of them. That's the value, for me, of reading this perspective about the base rate. There was a derailment in Michigan today and I immediately felt "whoa, a pattern," when it is obviously not, based on the clarity here. I'll still be suspicious with my limbic system capitalized but I can also hold onto the idea that I am reacting nonrationally. My two derailments worth lol.
There have also been derailments in the past week or so in South Carolina, Texas, Arizona, and Louisiana as well. The difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth? About 6 months.
And take it from a local. The East Palestine disaster is FAR, FAR worse than anything you've read. I'm 19 miles away and I already put my home up for sale.
Thank you for a sound and reasonable response. This was a horrible accident and will effect that area long term. I agree perspective is warranted and needed. EPA under administration is as worthless as all of Biden’s other agencies--ran by fools who check off some equity box without any actual ability to manage their responsibilities.
What I love most about this thread is that most everyone on here are gato fans, but when you disagree you come out and make your case in droves. God bless the free thinkers.
You should read up on what vinyl chloride does to humans, especially since it lingers for decades when it gets in the water table.
And you're really stacking the rationalistions on this issue: small relative to overall issues, nice one mate.
So is vaccine-deaths. More people die from malnourishment than from Covid vaccines, so them's no big then?
Heck, more dinosaurs died from a comet than humans die from car accidents so no need for traffic laws right?
Careful now, Gato. I think you're having a "Berenson/Ivermektin"-moment.
I am also trying to understand how shut down the media is. The video of that reporter being taken down appeared way out of line.
If they invited residents back in, are reporters allowed anywhere.
I will say that I don't at all think that you're trying to downplay the suffering of the residents but rather the hysteria of "trains are suddenly crashing all over the place and they never really have before." It's indeed a rubbery tightrope to walk, Gato.
Good gawd...well, you tried, anyhow, to bring some rational, tempered perspective to this. I've given up. Every *conservative* website, social media account is awash in actual breathless fear porn---that is as addictive as the sex porn--- that is out of scale with reality. Unless you take the knee and profess that this is *our Chernobyl*, you will be savaged. There is much lesson to be taken from the story of Chicken Little....and I even hesitate to mention 'chicken', too...
Arguing for perspective is rational, no doubt. I think this post has actually helped me understand that, yes, there's lots of accidents and some are serious. Anyone who knows probability and stats will know that a normal base rate of 1,000 derailments with perhaps 10% resulting in leaks that means 1 per month can't predict that 4 would happen in any particular month. Especially when explosions in such events only occurs every 2 to 3 years. But it is legitimately suspicious, it is important to observe trends. It could be a signal that society or even just you individually needs to take action. The balance with objectivity is you can push too far, willfully ignoring your intuition.
But do we yet know that it won't be on a Chernobyl level down the road? No.
I believe the locals have figured that out, even now. Yep, a definite "Chernobyl." The bastards that did the "controlled burn" (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) did so without any regard for human life. Or animal life as well. The damage, both ecological and economic here, is BAD. Really bad. And it's just the beginning.
Only a couple of cars exploded in the initial derailment. Flames shot 100 feet in the air. And oddly, no shrapnel. How bout that. The rest of cars were drained and emptied AFTER this. And the chemicals were far worse than the vinyl chloride. The govt and rail lines are evil bastards, that have taken no responsibility for even the short term effects, let alone the long term.
I'm moving. Putting my home up for sale, and I'm gone! And I'm UPSTREAM from East Palestine. 19 miles away and even my yard has no more wild life, and my Mourning Doves are gone. I miss them, they nest every year outside my window, and they're gone. Eerily silent with no birds.
Hey, talk to the locals. The ecological as well as economic damage here is beyond anything you'll hear of in the news. Dead wild life, sick and dying live stock and dead chickens up to 50 and even 100 miles away. No birds. Eerily silent. Dead fish and frogs many miles UPSTREAM from the crash. Crops, pastures and farmland all contaminated. Dead pets. Sick people. What the hell is wrong with you? Surely you know better than the trust the govt. , the EPA or the rail line?
The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that woke up the locals and there were flames 100 feet in the air BEFORE that controlled burn. But that was from a couple of cars. And guess what? No "shrapnel" from the initial explosion. But who knows what burned?
And then they empty and burn the other 10 or so cars with even worse chemicals and do the "controlled" burn????? That was a disgustingly evil, criminal act, with no concern for human or any other life.
I can begin to describe the damage done. So stop spreading lies and admit to the extent of this catastrophe. Your posts are belittling to those that are suffering right now. It's bad. REALLY bad. So just stop.
The hell it isn't rare. You have NO idea in hell how bad it is here, or the already wide-spread ecological and economic damage done.
Around here, we *USED* to have a lot of independence when it comes to the food supply. Local farms and hunting, and local farmers markets, made fresh local food abundant. I only went to local food stores for cleaning products and toilet paper. NOT NO MORE! Farms as far as 100 miles away are seeing dead or sick livestock, dead chickens, dead wild life, and dead fish and frogs in streams. Crops, pastures and farm animals are all being contaminated as well as the water supply.
The difference between conspiracy theories and the truth? About 6 months.
And don't expect the govt. or rail line to take any responsibility for the destroyed farms and livelihoods around here, let alone admit to the extent of the damage.
That crash and "controlled burn" were absolutely criminal acts, and the disregard for human life, as well as animal life, is evil beyond belief.
All the birds are one. Eerily silent now. I miss the Mourning Doves that nest outside my window each year. They had already started a new nest, but they're gone now. Dead wild life, pets, dead chickens and livestock, polluted and contaminated crops, pastures, and the streams are full of dead fish and frogs. People getting sick.
The EPA and government will never admit to what they've done here with their "controlled" burn. Obviously there is no such thing.
Sorry, but you are totally ignorant of the facts and extent of the short term and long term damage done here. If you think it's minimal, how bout you buy my house, cheap? Stop spreading your lies. It's belittling to those who suffer the damage.
The damage is FAR more widespread than you are obviously aware of. Farms 50 and even 100 miles away have sick live stock, dead chickens, and contaminated crops and pastures. I can't begin to estimate the economic damage to local farms that have been in families for many generations, and of course, property values. And since the Ohio and all major tributaries around here are full of dead fish, and the Ohio flows down to the Mississippi, expect contamination, which does NOT go away, to end up as far south as Louisiana. That has already been forcast.
Stop with the uneducated and uniformed OPINIONS. Look for posts from the locals. It's FAR FAR worse here than you'll ever read about. BIG TIME COVER UP. The bastards are not taking any responsibility for the damage they've done here with their criminal "burn."
Hey, talk to the locals. The ecological as well as economic damage here is beyond anything you'll hear of in the news. Dead wild life, sick and dying live stock and dead chickens up to 50 and even 100 miles away. No birds. Eerily silent. Dead fish and frogs many miles UPSTREAM from the crash. Crops, pastures and farmland all contaminated. Dead pets. Sick people. What the hell is wrong with you? Surely you know better than the trust the govt. , the EPA or the rail line?
The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that woke up the locals and there were flames 100 feet in the air BEFORE that controlled burn. But that was from a couple of cars. And guess what? No "shrapnel" from the initial explosion. But who knows what burned?
And then they empty and burn the other 10 or so cars with even worse chemicals and do the "controlled" burn????? That was a disgustingly evil, criminal act, with no concern for human or any other life.
I can begin to describe the damage done. So stop spreading lies and admit to the extent of this catastrophe. Your posts are belittling to those that are suffering right now. It's bad. REALLY bad. So just stop.
You are 100% right. Take it from a local. It's REALLY bad.
I find your take rather blasé. When I was a kid we could drink out of the creeks and spring runs anywhere, now there are serious worries of getting sick or poisoned. At that time cancer rate was 1 in 10 now almost 1 in 2. Why? Because of the chemicals in the environment are such our bodies have never seen before.
So tell me when are those profiting from poisoning the ground water, the air and the food we eat, going to start paying the freight? They can't. To clean up Ground water to pristine conditions would break the bank.
I was raised "If you can't pay for it, don't do it". I live by it to the best of my ability. I don't use chemicals because they will eventually get into the ground water, air and/or food. I can't pay for the consequence.
But since we give a pass to Pharma with regards to gene therapy injectables, why not all of industry. Why should they pay for the *uckups they do. WEF is working on billing to average joe, letting the wealthy and industry skate.
You seem very very blasé.
and i must confess to finding yours rather myopic.
the flip side is, of course, "enjoy returning to the living standards of 1800."
seems like people always leave that part out and want all the wealth and trappings of a modern technological society but without the price.
but it doesn't work like that.
there's lots of room for people to disagree about where you want to move the slider of higher costs and less abundance in exchange for cleaner X, but the simple fact is that the trade off is going to exist.
While you say I am myopic you fail to demonstrate the case. You also assume that I am not willing to pay the price.
I have been willing my entire life time. But one needs to be rich to do so. Why? To give up the BS BETTER LIVING THROUGH CHEMISTRY and find pristine land to live the 1800s life style, one needs to be rich. One cannot afford to live on land that is pristine if one is middle to low middle class. I don't mean with photovoltaics and other niceties. Just simple low tech living.
So I have done the next best thing.
> I was raised "If you can't pay for it, don't do it". I live by it to the best of my ability. I don't use chemicals because they will eventually get into the ground water, air and/or food. I can't pay for the consequence.
So you didn't critique the fact that I am in fact doing my best to minimize my harm to the Earth. My wife and I have found a small piece of land that we can live a subsistence level life. We almost live that now. But when we actually live that way, we will no longer have internet, cell phone electric power etc. I am fine with that and so is she. So there will be no way to publish the results.
I am surprised you didn't volunteer to move to East Palestine Ohio to enjoy the many benefits of vinyl chloride and the open air incineration of vinyl chloride, and the many wonderful chemical by products of such open air incineration.
Those people who are so enraged have no reason to be. The pets die by why worry about that, birds and fish die, what is not to like. Seems like an excellent place for all the folks that love better living through chemistry to move to. Pay a premium for the right to live in such a paradise and allow the folks that don't get it to leave and find the digs they would like.
I think those that make this issue small should have a large helping of life seasoned with vinyl chloride and chemical by products from East Palestine.
Wow. So you mean we here in Europe with our magnitudes harder environmental restrictions for industry and production et c live at a year 1800 standard?
Get a grip Gato, you're smarter than that. Or do you actually believe that everything here was sackcloth and dirt until 1918?
That was the stupidest post I've ever read. I guess you wouldn't mind living near Chernobyl. By all means, move here to East Palestine.
Excellent comment! 💥I’m 59 and I never thought I had to worry about water. We got a water filter a couple years ago...you can sure taste the difference and the water doesn’t smell like a swimming pool. Even the cat drinks more water.
I had cancer last August, screw that! I realize, sadly at my age, these f-ers don’t give a damn about anything but money.
Get back at all of these evil people and live healthy and live long! 🤬
I realized this back in the late 1960s. Sadly I haven't been able to generate much interest over the years. There was interest though. But the media as you know is controlled resulting in the quashing of dissent.
See https://modernfarmer.com/2021/02/the-inside-story-of-the-school-groundskeeper-who-took-on-monsanto/
Monsanto has not paid yet. It would make the news if they had. The judge reduced the amount the Jury awarded Dewayne Johnson.
If you or I don't pay a traffic fine an arrest warrant will be served and we will be arrested and put in Jail. Monsanto became a part of Bayer and didn't even get their hands slapped for not paying Mr. Johnson
It's laughable that ElGato thinks that Bloomberg reported real news is recently as 2014 🤦 . El Gato, has your account been hacked, or is this an early April 1st post?
Is it possible to be like "hey, this actually happens all the time but this still really sucks and is horrible"? I defo got that from Doomberg as well as the bad cat.
You maybe right, it is samsara after all. However when it rains, snows etc. We build a shelter. We help our neighbors. We share what we have.
That is the way of simple common folk. That is not the way of the super rich. If it were there would be no destruction of the Earth or all the living on it.
1000-1200 run rate is not at all acceptable in a country that is supposed to be "first world".
Most of the derailments are likely minor, so they are not comparable.
Most of the spills are also not comparable.
Detonating vinyl chloride was a bad idea.
We don't know what the immediate, mid-term, and long-term consequences will be.
It's a big deal to the people who live in that area.
It may become a big deal to people who live along the affected waterways.
I wouldn't move to the area.
I wouldn't drink the water.
Would you?
I don't live far from the derailment/vinyl chloride spill south of the Philadelphia Airport in 2012 that Doomberg describes in his article. It was vented into the atmosphere (bad enough) not burned. The video below shows an atmospheric inversion that created a low "cloud" of the burned chemicals that crossed into Pennsylvania. We have no idea what the consequences will be for those people.
The derailment was unacceptable, especially now that we have video evidence that a car was on fire for about 20 minutes before the derailment.
And they completely screwed up the "clean up".
https://unicornriot.ninja/2023/like-the-doors-of-hell-were-open-east-palestine-train-disaster-casts-toxic-cloud-over-future-of-oh-pa-region/
A broad and growing compilation of videos, source material, etc. Related to the event.
💬 We don't know what the immediate, mid-term, and long-term consequences will be.
Sounds eerily familiar, no?
I agree and most of the derailments are likely very minor and happen at the rail yard, not on actual track. Looking at the data in detail, if something falls off a rail car that counts as a derailment.
I think a better statistic to look at is “explosion”. The FRA does track this and the last one was recorded in 2019. So while the OH derailment didn’t directly result in an explosion I would say that it’s probably better aligned with that metric than a simple derailment.
According to what I've read and heard, they decided to burn the vinyl chloride. It didn't burn in the immediate aftermath of the derailment. Whether they anticipated the explosion or the atmospheric inversion that created a low level toxic "cloud" floating into Pennsylvania is another issue. At the very least, they were grossly incompetent in their "response".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCqu5oMxTZg&t=140s
Nope
If you trust the experts, you would have taken the vaccine.
I went through a situation at work (medical research center) where we were forced to fumigate our building with chlorine dioxide. After the fumigation, we were given the all clear to go back into the building. The 'experts' had tested the air and found no traces. Nearly everyone in the facility began immediately reporting symptoms such as, sore throat, watering eyes, nausea, shortness of breath among others. Our director sent us home.
We were then subjected to months of gaslighting (there is nothing wrong, everything is fine, you are complaining about an odor, we have tested and everything is safe). The departments that are supposed to make sure the workplace is safe refused to take our claims seriously. They kept saying we were complaining about an odor and would not acknowledge that we were reporting physical symptoms. It was like living in the twilight zone. And very eye opening.
Finally a colleague (vice chair of the dept of neurosurgery, no less) decided to get his throat looked at after continuing to feel pain whenever he went back into the building. The doctor said he had a chemical burn in his throat. A chemical burn in his throat. After this, and much complaining we finally got some mitigation efforts.
This was a center that studied head injury and cardiac arrest, we lost months of time with no research being done. Our reports of serious physical side effects from exposure in our work place to a "safe" chemical were not listened to or taken seriously by the 'experts.' So please forgive me if I am not inclined to take the claims of 'experts' seriously.
You are exactly right. Take it from the locals, the damage here is FAR worse than anything you've read. The govt, EPA and rail line are evil bastards for what they have done.
I think you're getting this one wrong, but you're still the coolest cat on the internet.
Calling upon my chemist background, I would challenge the notion that burning hazardous chemicals from a rail spill is the proper way to dispose and contain. Especially one so close to humans. Clearly, there is an effect on the local wildlife, what makes you think humans can just go about their day without concern? Ever notice these things never seem to happen in the white, liberal neighborhoods of say, Cambridge, MA? Or Brooklyn? Or Pacific Heights? In reviewing this, maybe try turning your bullshit meter back on?
Some trainwrecks are more damaging than others. Does that 1000 per year include the near continuous trainwreck in Washington DC and most state capitols?
Inquiring minds need to know :-).
Tuckers Show last night had an expert on who said he’d never heard of any railway burning these chemicals. They’ve basically nuked East Palestine and telling them what they see, smell and feel, isn’t happening. None of this is a laughing matter, the country is being flushed all over, every agency run by incompetent a$$holes, and we laugh as Rome burns.
You got that exactly right.
How is putting a match to it "100% the correct disposal method"???
It creates dioxins and disburses everything widely.
The solution to pollution is dilution, eh?
if dilution means "taking something highly toxic and making it non-toxic, yes, it can be the best choice once the accident has occurred.
once you've spilled it, what was the better choice?
Pump it - the entire contaminated slurry - into tanker trucks ASAP to protect the water tabe and to prevent air pollution. And drive to the already pre-existing toxic spill/waste handling facility.
Fully doable to. Curious indeed why other (post)industrial nations can do things like that but not the US.
I don't think so actually. I think vinyl chloride's volatile, like acetone and very flammable. Heavy explosive vapor than lays on the ground unless it's windy. Some of it might be pumped up perhaps.
How you see depends entirely what you're paying for. When it's not your skin in the game, well, it's an entirely different game.
Much more volatile than acetone, actually. Vinyl chloride is a gas at room temperature, its boiling point at standard pressure is -13 C or +8 F. About twice as dense as air.
If the containment vessel is undamaged, and you can access it, probably best to offload into a tank truck. If it has holes in it, your options are more limited.
There is no good solution to messes like these. Only ones that are more or less bad. In situations like this, people (often without relevant training) make worse choices than they might have.
Monday morning quarterbacking can't fix those mistakes.
Believe me, us locals would have rathered they pumped up what they could, and close the rail line down to contain the contamination. The damage they did with the "controlled" burn (an oxymoron if ever there was one) to the ecological system as well as economic, is beyond belief. And much more wide spread than the media has admitted to. I'm moving as soon as possible, and I'm almost 20 miles UPSTREAM. No birds or critters in my yard anymore. Sick pets. And streams full dead fish, even a mile from here. The bastards. EVIL bastards.
I have to trust your testimony because you are there. However, to me this is strong evidence that there is something more going on here than a few cars of vinyl chloride. As dangerous chemicals go, VC is middle-of-the road -- flammable, not acutely toxic, combustion products (primarily hydrogen chloride) more annoying than dangerous in modest concentrations.
The effects that you -- and others -- are reporting indicate that something else is in this mix, something much more sinister that for some reason, 'everyone' seems to want to keep 'under the rug.'
Normally with a situation like this there is an emergency coordination center set up, with designated spokespeople who make regular announcements and inform the public about the dangers, what they can do to protect themselves, and what is being done in the emergency response to take care of the situation.
In this case, crickets -- the silence is deafening. It really does make one wonder what the hell is going on with the USA these days. Not long ago the response would have been like Rikard describes in Norway. Early in my days, I worked on the 'company railroad' at Dow Chemical in what was at the time (and may still be) the world's largest single chemical complex in one fenced compound. Mostly basic industrial chemicals, all of them hazardous in one way or another, and even us summer hires got a complete hazmat rundown before they ever let us out the door. (This was in 1974, FWIW.) Even us green-behind-the-ears college boys knew enough to be careful around the chemicals, because a tank-car load of just about any of them would cause a pretty significant event if it got loose in town -- our home town. We always, always had our eyes out for anything unusual. It was just how it was done.
How things can have gotten so bad truly is amazing, and not in a good way. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you, I know it's not much but it's all I can offer.
Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated. Yes, it seems that dioxin is a major concern. And the manifest that the EPA first posted contained many dangerous chemicals, including phosgene, the WW1 chemical used to kill tens of thousands of soldiers, and much more. There is a whole lot more going on that the media is silent about, and that the rail road and govt. are not taking any responsibility for. Obviously, from the dead wildlife and livestock, as well as no birds, dead fish and sick people for miles around the crash site, the locals are well aware of a major cover up. There is no way in hell that the "experts" were unaware of the consequences of their "controlled" burn. The total disregard for life, especially human life, is beyond belief.
The government has more than enough technology to dispose of dangerous chemicals without doing a "controlled burn." An oxymoron if I ever heard one. What they have done to this area to get their rail line open is criminal. And it's no coincidence that we are no longer food independent. No more local farms or hunting. I only went to the food store for occasional tuna, bleach and toilet paper. Farms that have been in families for generations will go out of business as well. The bastards are not telling the full story, or taking any responsibility for the ecological or economic disaster here. Evil, all of them. The govt., the EPA, the rail lines and the media. Bastards, all of them.
Totally my thoughts too, Rikard.
But as a non-expert, I don't know if there are reasons why this either wasn't done or couldn't have been done.
I get that some of the train was on fire. And I get that it presented a clear and immediate threat, but then it becomes a threat exchange/engagement. And there are people whose _very job_ is to do dangerous things. Do we say to smoke jumpers, "you know, fires are dangerous, so maybe you shouldn't jump out of this plane"?
Perhaps it's that all the brave souls resisted the pandemic mandates and were summarily fired, leaving the sheeple left. And they opted to back away and ignite it all, rather than risk life/limb to fight it all.
I dunno. Now that I read what I just wrote there, it's a bit harsh (and I definitely don't mean to denigrate _any_ first responders), but it's how I feel right now.
Ug.
Rush train engines to the spot, while hazmat detaches what they can and tow undamaged still on the tracks cars away from the scene. If safe, send in tankers to pump out the spill. Immediately secure the groundwater systems from contamination.
We've built up systems and response since the 1970s, including rules and regs, so that stuff like this can't happen (barring actual sabotage).
That is how it would have been done here. That is how our personnel for these kinds of events train.
Of course, here the response wouldn't be contingent on the company only thinking of covering their ass and not having to spend money, and even in the most remote areas the response time would be under an hour from the first alert (when the initial car caught fire), partly because our military and civil defence is tied into emergency response services.
Not having third world nation railroadsystems due to corporate greed and department grift also helps.
Gato has misconstrued the base rate fallacy: even if about a thousand incidents a year are classified as derailments, are all those derailments the same type and kind of accident as the one in East Palestine? No. Not even close. And not even all chemical spills come close to being the same kind, type or magnitude.
What Gato is doing is the same kind of thing anti-nuclear activists do when they lump Fukushima with Chernobyl with Three Mile Island with the total number of incidents reported from nuclear powerplants (where any fluctutation outside safety parameters gets reported).
He must be conscious he is doing it. I wonder why he does it? I hadn't pegged him as a "be contrary to be cool"-personality type.
You are exactly right. The initial derailment resulted in an explosion that shot flames 100 feet in the air. Haven't heard any of that from the media or EPA. What burned? Who knows. But it was only a couple of cars initially. And no shrapnel. How bout that. The damage done from that completely irresponsible and unnecessary "controlled" burn is criminal beyond belief. The total disregard for animal and especially human life is beyond evil. They will never admit to the damage done, neither ecological nor economic. And it's MASSIVE. They are EVIL bastards, all of them.
Make it non-toxic??? At best, less toxic. Oh, I'm sure it's all a field of roses now.
It's rather like Pfizer's situation. Avoid every liability, deny everything. Admit nothing. Take as much as you can and run. They have no skin in those people's game. Get the rail line back in service and forget about it. I don't get why you care if the vax is killing millions.
Maybe burning was not a terrible decision in the moment. Let's see it any medical, environmental and economic followup is done. I seriously doubt it.
“Following new modeling information conducted this morning by the Ohio National Guard and U.S. Department of Defense, Ohio Governor Mike DeWine and Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro are ordering an immediate evacuation in a one-mile by two-mile area surrounding East Palestine which includes parts of both Ohio and Pennsylvania.
The vinyl chloride contents of five rail cars are currently unstable and could potentially explode, causing deadly disbursement of shrapnel and toxic fumes. To alleviate the risk of uncontrollable shrapnel from an explosion, Norfolk Southern Railroad is planning a controlled release of the vinyl chloride at approximately 3:30 p.m. today.”
This is the quote from Doomberg’s article that gave me pause...maybe you and Doomberg are correct in your assessments, but the words “modeling”, “Dept of Defence” and “Mike DeSwine” are three giant red flags. I just have to assume all three are liars until proven otherwise.
Not that you don't have enough egg on your face already, but perhaps you could make room for a bit more .....
take a look: https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-02-21-eric-coppolino-health-ranger-call-for-urgent-total-evacuation-of-east-palestine-dioxin-fallout.html
Repost!
he toxic cloud event that’s dropping extremely toxic dioxins across a large area of residential housing and farmland was deliberately generated by the open burning of vinyl chloride, creating combustion byproducts of dioxins which are many orders of magnitude more toxic and dangerous than the original substance.
Understand that the combustion of chlorinated compounds always results in the formation of dioxins. This simple fact is known by all competent chemists and is openly admitted by the EPA itself on its dioxins warning page, which states:
Studies have shown that only small amounts of chlorinated materials in waste are required to support dioxin formation when burning waste… Much of the dioxins created and released into the air through backyard burning settle on plants. These plants are, in turn, eaten by meat and dairy animals, which store the dioxins in their fatty tissue. People are exposed to dioxins primarily by eating meat, fish, and dairy products, especially those high in fat. Backyard burning occurs most commonly in rural farming areas where dioxin emissions can more easily be deposited on animal feed crops and grazing lands. These dioxins then accumulate in the fats of dairy cows, beef, poultry, and swine, making human consumption of these harmful chemicals difficult to avoid.
Near-PERMANENT ecological destruction on a scale never before witnessed
The EPA even states that dioxins are PBTs, which means 1) Persistent. 2) Bioaccumulative. 3) Toxic. This means they don’t go away, they accumulate up the food chain to achieve higher and higher concentrations, and 3) They are toxic. As the EPA explains:
Dioxins are classified as persistent, bioaccumulative, and toxic pollutants (PBTs). PBTs are highly toxic, long-lasting substances that can build up in the food chain to levels that are harmful to human and ecosystem health. Persistent means they remain in the environment for extended periods of time. Bioaccumulative means their concentration levels increase as they move up the food chain. As a consequence, animals at the top of the food chain (such as humans) tend to have the highest dioxin concentrations in their bodies.
What sort of health problems are caused by dioxin exposure?
1) Immune suppression.
2) Infertility, spontaneous abortions.
3) Extreme hormone disruption.
4) Developmental disorders in babies and children.
5) DNA mutations.
6) Cancer.
Via the EPA:
Dioxins are potent toxicants with the potential to produce a broad spectrum of adverse effects in humans. Dioxins can alter the fundamental growth and development of cells in ways that have the potential to lead to many kinds of impacts. These include adverse effects upon reproduction and development, suppression of the immune system, disruption of hormonal systems, and cancer.
The “controlled burn” actually transformed a relatively harmless chemical into an extremely toxic, deadly chemical that will persist across Ohio, Pennsylvania and New York State for CENTURIES
The media and government are both repeatedly using the phrase, “controlled burn” to describe the setting fire to the liquid vinyl chloride monomer that was being carried by the Norfolk Southern railroad.
Vinyl chloride is made solely of three elements: Carbon, hydrogen and chlorine. In its simplest form, it looks like this (the monomer, liquid form is on the left, and the solid poly form is on the right):
Although vinyl chloride is somewhat toxic, it’s nowhere near as toxic as the dioxins created by burning vinyl chloride without fully incinerating it. Low-temperature combustion actually produces far more toxic compounds than what you started with, in other words.
Put another way, if you incinerate it as a hazardous waste at > 2000 degrees (F), you will destroy the molecule’s morphology and end up with just the individual elements such as carbon and hydrogen, each of which is relatively harmless by itself.
But if you ignite vinyl chloride in an open ditch, you create a dioxin factory that produces extremely toxic molecules from the combination of heat and oxygen. The hydrogen, carbon and chlorine are combined with oxygen from the open air (hence the fact that the burn was actually uncontrolled, not controlled), and you produce molecules like this: (2,3,7,8 TCDD)
Image source: Restoration and Remediation Magazine Online, RandRmagonline.com
After this relatively low-temperature combustion (an open fire in a ditch), you have now converted relatively harmless vinyl chloride into extremely toxic, persistent toxins known as dioxins.
Burning the vinyl chloride was an act of ecological terrorism and a crime against nature and human civilization
In effect, you’ve just increased the toxicity of this substance by perhaps 10 orders of magnitude or more, given that dioxins can be toxic at exposures well below billionths of a gram. A femtogram is one millionth of one billionth of a gram, and dioxins can produce toxic effects at femtograms of exposure.
In fact, competent scientists have concluded that there is no safe level of exposure to dioxins. Not even one femtogram. That’s because at any level, dioxins begin to produce toxic effects on biology, no matter how small the exposure.
Put another way, by setting fire to the vinyl chloride, the railroad turned their relatively non-toxic product into an insanely toxic chemical bomb and released it into the open air.
To call this a “controlled burn” is a crime. The media is gaslighting the entire nation by refusing to report on dioxins.
Whoever set fire to this vinyl chloride in an open ditch just carried out the worst act of ecological terrorism ever recorded in North America.
As Restoration and Remediation magazine explains, these dioxins are the most toxic chemicals known to humankind…
It is 100% the correct decision if you are the rail road company faced with massive clean up costs - burn it off into the atmosphere - someone else's problem now. This has more to do with the bottom line than best practices.
Yeap. And the same logic that's creating massive profits for Pfizer. Kind of telling that Gato's all for it here with the same nameless "experts" playbook.
Has the CDC recommended people to wear masks to protect against the fumes?
Interesting mask guidance from CA public health in 2019: https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/N95-mask-wildfire-smoke-are-they-safe-14560537.php?utm_campaign=CMS%20Sharing%20Tools%20(Premium)&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral
If thousands of people die suddenly and the retort is "it is NOT the vaccine" then maybe we should apply same thinking to the fox and the fish. It wasn't the train crash that caused them to die, that is just a coincidence.
I think it just happens to be coincidentally and tangentially beneficial to the biden regime to have made up the "ufo shootdowns" to distract from the Nordstream sabotage bombshell.....it just happened to distract from a very bad environmental spill as well.
Yup. But I'm starting to have a hard time determining all the "sub" limited hangouts within limited hangouts.
Alas that is the game with our overlords.
They apparently get all their ideas from Simpsons episodes.
'Ummm let's just say there are aliens!'
And the X-Files. Check this out:
Fox Mulder : [Mulder begins to summarize the grand conspiracy theory] No sooner had we defeated Germany than a new threat started appearing in skies over America, drawn to Earth by the latest threat to extinction: the H-bomb. Explosions acting as transducers, drawing alien life forms through wormholes in spaceships using electrogravitic propulsion. Advanced extraterrestrial species visiting us, concerned for mankind and the threat of our self-destruction, forestalling our annihilation through their own self-sacrifice. The crashes at Roswell. More importantly, places like Aztec. World leaders signed secret memos directing scientific studies of alien technology and biochemistry. Classified studies were done at military installations S4, Groom Lake, Wright-Patterson and Dulce, extracting alien tissue. Tests were done on unsuspecting human subjects, in elaborately staged abductions in craft using alien technology recovered from the downed saucers... including human hybridization through gene editing and forced implantation of alien embryos.
Sveta : Why do such a thing and lie about it... our own government?
Fox Mulder : Your own government lies as a matter of course, as a matter of policy... the Tuskegee experiments on black men in the '30s; Henrietta Lacks.
Sveta : What are they trying to do?
Dana Scully : That's the missing piece.
Tad O'Malley : But it's not hard to imagine... a government hiding, hoarding... alien technology for 70 years, at the expense of human life and the future of the planet. Driven not only by corporate greed, but... a darker objective.
Fox Mulder : The takeover of America.
Tad O'Malley : And then the world itself, by any means necessary, however violent... or cruel... or efficient. By severe drought brought on by weather wars conducted secretly using aerial contaminants and high-altitude electromagnetic waves, in a state of perpetual war to create problem-reaction-solution scenarios to distract, enrage and enslave American citizens at home with tools like the Patriot Act and the National Defense Authorization Act, which abridged the Constitution in the name of national security. The militarization of police forces in cities across the U.S. The building of prison camps by the Federal Emergency Management Agency with no stated purpose. The corporate takeover of food and agriculture, pharmaceuticals and health care, even the military, in clandestine agendas, to fatten, dull, sicken and control a populace already consumed by consumerism.
[President George W. Bush in montage clip: "And I encourage you all to go shopping more."]
Tad O'Malley : A government that taps your phone, collects your data and monitors your whereabouts with impunity. A government preparing to use that data against you when it strikes and the final takeover begins.
Dana Scully : The takeover of America.
Tad O'Malley : By a well-oiled and well-armed multinational group of elites that will cull, kill and subjugate.
Dana Scully : Happening as we sit here.
Tad O'Malley : It's happening all around us.
Fox Mulder : The other shoe waiting to drop.
Tad O'Malley : It'll probably start on a Friday. The banks will announce a security action necessitating their computers to go offline all weekend.
Fox Mulder : Digital money will disappear.
Sveta : They can just steal your money?
Fox Mulder : Followed by the detonation of strategic electromagnetic pulse bombs to knock out major grids.
Tad O'Malley : What will seem like an attack on America by terrorists or Russia.
Fox Mulder : Or a simulated alien invasion using alien replica vehicles that exist and are already in use.
Dana Scully : [skeptical] An alien invasion of the U.S.
Fox Mulder : The Russians tried it in '47.
Dana Scully : You can't say these things.
Tad O'Malley : I'm gonna say them tomorrow.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4549938/characters/nm0000141
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4549938/
The X-Files, My Struggle Episode, Jan 24, 2016
We need to have cocktails. All of it. Right up my alley. Lol
Back to Team Base for cocktails and debriefing!
There is no doubt we would unlock the secrets of the multiverse!
Go fer it!...:]]
Hey!...need help writing a manifesto?...yes/no...
Lmao
Oh goodness you're good too!
“Operator! Give me the number for 911!” said the people...lol
Probably Homer’s second best line after “but the Generals were due” to explain betting against the Harlem Globetrotters!
EXACTLY. the government loves to set up a bunch of "Washington Generals", right?
"Sterile Bee Hives" run by Sterile Bee Queens. Analogy to sterile mosquitos or fruit flies released by the government.
The enemy has a sterile bee hive for every hue of conservative.
e.g. QAnon.
Damn! Truly brilliant.
Many Thanks!
If it's not a hive they created, they infiltrate to sterilize, coopt &/or sabotage, as with Oathkeepers and so many other groups. Check out "The Terror Factory: Inside the FBI's manufactured war on terror." Written by a Mother Jones leftie, so take parts of it with a grain of salt, but still very revealing.
Will do. Love that type of stuff.
Check out David T. Hardy's book "I'm from the Government and I'm Here to Kill You: The True Human Cost of Official Negligence." Very relevant to all his, best book I've read in years.
https://www.abebooks.com/9781510722262/Government-Kill-True-Human-Cost-1510722262/plp
I find thinking about that stuff really drains my energy.
Yes! But I can't help myself.
Sometimes I go for a run to get rid of the "voices"...;)