Excellent write gato! It's clearly evident why Twitter kicked you out - feline analysis of reality was too much for them.
Ignoring natural immunity...welcome to 2020 "science". I don't know if this ranks as one of the worst things the cultists have come out with (I have quite a list, like "we are all in this together" and "my mask protects you, your mask protects me" to say a few...).
If there was an issue with natural immunity, we would already found out. Lots of reinfections would have happened already (last time I checked they are soo few that you could say they are near zero). The only things I can think why they are pushing soooo hard for vax are $$$$, power and control.
Sadly, all this lockdown nonsense created a precedent. We should strive to return to normal and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, they may attempt to pull something similar, but using "climate change" as an excuse. And these vax passports, those should be a huge no-no. Today it's the vax, tomorrow it could be mandatory health insurance, then "oh you bought 5 lbs of red meat - blacklisted for not respecting climate emergency edicts".
Marty Makary is a truth teller (although he was wrong about asymptomatic spread). I recommend his book (The Price We Pay). He's been fighting against predatory medicine for some time.
I agree that a good portion of the population has had the infection and recovered and are thus a block against the virus going forward. Natural immunity is undoubtedly broader because the immune system is exposed to all viral epitopes. It's probably more long-lasting as well.
The bizarre messaging about natural immunity started last year, and I have to wonder if it was a psy-op. A couple of family members with very high (and ill deserved) self-opinions would spout the propaganda. I think they believed it, which is baffling.
"We don't know how long antibodies last..."
Ummm, antibodies naturally drop over time, but the memory B cells will ramp them back up with re-exposure. And there are also memory T cells that will take out infected cells. There's no reason to think this virus is any different.
For a moment, I wondered if they knew something I didn't. Does this virus attack the immune system? Is this airborne HIV? (It does share some nucleotides with HIV, which is odd). But, then, I realized...no one would get better if that were true.
These "vaccines" are not necessary for those who've recovered, and they might
I have my doubts about how much these "vaccines" have contributed to the drop in cases (+PCRs) in the United States. Coronaviruses are seasonal, and the season is over in the Northern Temperate Regions. Things are pretty quiet right now in Texas and the SE, but we may see an uptick of cases again in the summer. It would be nice if SARS-CoV-2 disappeared as SARS did, but I expect it will return in the fall.
The EUAs for these "vaccines" don't claim to prevent infection or transmission. They only claim to mitigate symptoms with infection. So, the virus may still be circulating through the population. It could be that we aren't detecting the cases. How many of the breakthrough infections were detected by symptomatic screening versus routine screening? And, imo, an argument could be made that these leaky "vaccines" will suppress symptoms in people with higher viral loads...thus creating asymptomatic spreaders.
Some scientists believe that mass vaccination in a time of pandemic is dangerous and stupid (Geert Vanden Bossche and Luc Montagnier). They believe the leaky injections are forcing mutations and creating variants at an accelerated pace. Michael Yeadon (former Pfizer VP and Chief Science Officer) believes the "vaccines" are unnecessary for most people, but he doesn't trust Vanden Bossche (who has a past affiliation with Gates and GAVI) and believes the threat of the variants will be used to justify boosters in the future. If you have time, I recommend this interview with Yeadon by Robert Kennedy.
I apologize if I've posted these before. They provide context on his current belief about the motivations of the people behind the bizarre response of medicine and public health.
Some scientists and medical doctors are concerned that mass vaccination with these leaky "vaccines" will make the virus far more deadly to the unvaccinated. This has happened with Marek's disease in chickens. Was this concern the reason for Walensky's freak out a couple months ago?
Other scientists and medical doctors are concerned that these "vaccines will" enhance disease in the "vaccinated" when they are exposed in the next season. They skipped the animal trials for these "vaccines", but the animals suffered catastrophic disease with re-exposure in the efforts to create a SARS vaccine. This phenomenon was also seen with the RSV and Dengue vaccines. These same people are concerned about the long-term risk of autoimmunity and neurological disease from the mRNA and viral vector/DNA “vaccines”.
A couple weeks ago, I attended a seminar given by Dr. Sherry Tenpenny, MD, on the 20 Mechanisms of Injury of the injections. This is a high-level list from that seminar.
So, basically, we have no idea what's going to happen next fall. Will the "vaccines" enhance disease in the "fully vaccinated"? Will the "vaccines" create dangerous variants that will harm the unvaccinated? Will SARS-CoV-2 disappear? I'm rooting for option three.
WRT the BLM insanity last year…I realized a couple weeks ago that it was probably a distraction for those of us with functioning brains…so we wouldn’t have time to fully comprehend that this insane overreaction is global. We are the last, best hope because we are a Constitutional Republic with a Bill of Rights. Europe, especially Germany, is pretty scary right now. We must push our state and local governments to outlaw mandatory “vaccines” and “vaccine passports” and support those who are brave enough to push against the narrative.
There’s a reason for the sudden turnabout wrt the lab leak theory. We just don't know what that reason is, who made the call, and for what reason...'cause getting to the truth isn't it.
I'm pretty sure by this point, enough people have seen the intel that it became impossible for them to continue this lie. Dr. Quay's publication was also solid scientific evidence to support the lab leak and Asher could no longer cover for the powers that be.
You may be correct. However, there was ample evidence to suspect a lab origin over a year ago; and there was a forceful pushback against any suggestion of a lab origin in medicine, public health, and media that appeared to be coordinated. The media attacked and mocked Senator Cotton for suggesting the possibility. Daszak attacked Maria Bartiromo for perpetuating conspiracies. Fauci attacked. Collins attacked. This was not your garden variety counter-narrative. It was nasty. They went for the proverbial jugular to shut people up.
They never found an intermediate host. We've known for months that the NIAID funded research at the WIV through EcoHealthAlliance. We've known for months that they (whoever they are) quietly lifted the prohibition against gain-of-function research in 2017. We've known for over a year that the virus has an unusual ability to attach to the ACE2 receptor...that it has nucleotides in common with HIV (that got my attention)...and that it has unusual cardiovascular symptoms in some people.
Rand Paul's confrontation with Fauci was a tipping point, but I don't think people suddenly had an epiphany. The turnabout was sudden and without explanation...like the CDC change in mask guidance. I wonder if a group behind the scenes is making concessions to placate the masses and keep them off the scent.
Perhaps I've gone full conspiracy theory...but if it doesn't feel right...it probably isn't.
I agree, the shift of the narrative about a possible lab leak was too abrupt. Heck, even facebook said they won't be deleting posts regarding that (btw, if that doesn't open eyes regarding the true nature of most social media, I don't know what will).
Don't get me wrong, knowing the origin is important; however, I get the feeling they want to use that as a distraction. Do they want to use that as a scapegoat to avoid heavy scrutiny of lockdowns, or worse, an attempt of sorta justifying them? (something of an escape valve). Seeing how most of the masses are gullible, I wouldn't be surprised. Or perhaps the vax aren't the miracle they are spouting?
(Also, I get the feeling Fauci has already become a huge liability...)
I have been reading The Ethical Skeptic; he suspects a lab leak, but the data he has gathered has led him to suspect the leak happened around 2018. If you take into consideration that the WHO team discovered there were already around 11 circulating variants of the virus in December 2019, it is very plausible the virus has been circulating for quite a while (specially, if one takes into account coronaviruses don't mutate as fast as influenza ones).
I've being following The Ethical Skeptic as well...at least trying ;)
There are bigger forces than Fauci and Gates behind the messaging, suppression, and flip-flops. Bigger than the CCP. We just don't know who they are yet.
I totally agree. It's crazy that our polity has denigrated so thoroughly that the left would rather prop up an authoritarian communist government committing genocide before admitting that an inflammatory politician like Trump was right.
over a year ago i used to debate an anti trumper with a background in anti vietnam underground. he was sure an animal source and even stated the rumor civet or what ever. i replied 'where re the flesh samples'.... cricket to this day. i don't talk to him anymore too much a prc stoolie. which seems to correlate with the us media covid agitprop panic press.
another theory which could have been sustained but is not is: "us money was paying for surveillance of sars cov in remote prc & a sample got mishandled". any such sample would have been proved by a chain of custody, that even the wuhan lab and it's cdc money could not be so negligent....... i do not accept that idea at all, but it was going around some smart questioners i know last year. proly a plant from prc influencers.
I doubt we'll ever know the truth about the origin of the virus. The civet cat was implicated in SARS within months. Early on, the pangolin was implicated as an intermediate host for SARS-CoV-2...but that story disappeared.
There were a few key problems with the Huanan Market/animal origin story. First, they didn't sell bats or pangolins in the market. It's a fish market. And, second, about 40% of the early cases had no connection to the market direct or indirect. The paper was published by Chinese doctors before the CCP could suppress it. I have the link on my old laptop...haven't transferred it yet.
I don't think the virus naturally evolved...certainly not in the time frame they promote. It may be a bio-weapon. The closest virus found in the wild was identified by the Chinese military. It may have been an accidental release...a lab worker became infected with an enhanced virus and spread it to the community.
One thing is clear, though, the Chinese government lied through their teeth early on in the outbreak about transmissibility. Millions of Chinese citizens traveled all over the world and seeded the virus. The spread was intentional even if the release was accidental.
There is no doubt that money was sent to WIV from NIAID through EcoHealth Alliance. Whether that money was used to do gof research is unknown and may never be known. I'm not sure it matters. Money is fungible. The US taxpayer should not be subsidizing biological research in China, especially when the labs involved have connections to the Chinese military.
It is long since pas time for a Nuremberg Trial 2.0 to "ask some very pointed questions" and to bring indictments with prison terms for the bio-fascists who are perpetuating this long-con.
ignore cdc and the sponsors in pfizer & jnj...... b, and t cells last a long time, and the learned cells are where the anti bodies they see eroding were made
getting to be pitch fork and torches time for cdc and big pharma!
Wondering how many people who got the vaccine had already had Covid-19? How many of them never had symptoms, were never tested, and didn't know they were already protected with antibodies? If you are considering getting the vaccine, think about getting tested first.
it's beyond antibodies. those fade rapidly when not in use. it's the memory of when and how to make them that persists along with numerous other vectors of response (like t-cells). if you had covid several months ago, you will likely no longer have significant antibody levels. this does not mean you are not resistant or that your immunity has degraded. it just means it's not active right this moment.
i'm not sure there is any readily accessible way to know.
i mean, if you had access to a full lab and could take your blood or cells and challenge it with covid19 and see if you immediately respond, maybe you could, but i'm not aware of any definitive way to know if you have already had it other than having had symptomatic presentation and positive IgG or PCR around that time.
being antibody negative now is not proof you never had it.
one negative, the t cell test would close down a lot of vaccine "demand" we cannot have that!
cost is not an issue the whole panic has been cost plus no upper bound on economic tragedy like any dod boondoggle weapon which occasionally run out of poitical support.
if the republic survives, which i fear it won't, we may know actuals in 2040....
I think 3 months approx. typical amount of time you would still test positive for antibodies. Also coincidentally the recommended amount of time you are supposed to wait after having covid to get the vaccine.
None that I can think of. I’ve read many “reports” that claim it which is why I say typically. Many anecdotal stories of more and less. Also, I don’t think the quality of the antibody test is great.
I believe it's months...if not longer. Great question. We were discussing this last night at dinner with friends. But of course no one knew the answer....just like we struggled for the past year to find answers to many questions (that should not have been even questions in the first place!)
Excellent write gato! It's clearly evident why Twitter kicked you out - feline analysis of reality was too much for them.
Ignoring natural immunity...welcome to 2020 "science". I don't know if this ranks as one of the worst things the cultists have come out with (I have quite a list, like "we are all in this together" and "my mask protects you, your mask protects me" to say a few...).
If there was an issue with natural immunity, we would already found out. Lots of reinfections would have happened already (last time I checked they are soo few that you could say they are near zero). The only things I can think why they are pushing soooo hard for vax are $$$$, power and control.
Sadly, all this lockdown nonsense created a precedent. We should strive to return to normal and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, they may attempt to pull something similar, but using "climate change" as an excuse. And these vax passports, those should be a huge no-no. Today it's the vax, tomorrow it could be mandatory health insurance, then "oh you bought 5 lbs of red meat - blacklisted for not respecting climate emergency edicts".
i had a conversation with a phd, ee friend about a year ago about long term immunity.....
my final response was why do you think covid is different than any other virus that induces an immune response?
both of us not bio trained.
Amen and thank you!
Marty Makary is a truth teller (although he was wrong about asymptomatic spread). I recommend his book (The Price We Pay). He's been fighting against predatory medicine for some time.
I agree that a good portion of the population has had the infection and recovered and are thus a block against the virus going forward. Natural immunity is undoubtedly broader because the immune system is exposed to all viral epitopes. It's probably more long-lasting as well.
The bizarre messaging about natural immunity started last year, and I have to wonder if it was a psy-op. A couple of family members with very high (and ill deserved) self-opinions would spout the propaganda. I think they believed it, which is baffling.
"We don't know how long antibodies last..."
Ummm, antibodies naturally drop over time, but the memory B cells will ramp them back up with re-exposure. And there are also memory T cells that will take out infected cells. There's no reason to think this virus is any different.
For a moment, I wondered if they knew something I didn't. Does this virus attack the immune system? Is this airborne HIV? (It does share some nucleotides with HIV, which is odd). But, then, I realized...no one would get better if that were true.
These "vaccines" are not necessary for those who've recovered, and they might
be very dangerous for them. I recommend you read Dr. Hooman Noorchasm (https://noorchashm.medium.com).
I have my doubts about how much these "vaccines" have contributed to the drop in cases (+PCRs) in the United States. Coronaviruses are seasonal, and the season is over in the Northern Temperate Regions. Things are pretty quiet right now in Texas and the SE, but we may see an uptick of cases again in the summer. It would be nice if SARS-CoV-2 disappeared as SARS did, but I expect it will return in the fall.
The EUAs for these "vaccines" don't claim to prevent infection or transmission. They only claim to mitigate symptoms with infection. So, the virus may still be circulating through the population. It could be that we aren't detecting the cases. How many of the breakthrough infections were detected by symptomatic screening versus routine screening? And, imo, an argument could be made that these leaky "vaccines" will suppress symptoms in people with higher viral loads...thus creating asymptomatic spreaders.
Some scientists believe that mass vaccination in a time of pandemic is dangerous and stupid (Geert Vanden Bossche and Luc Montagnier). They believe the leaky injections are forcing mutations and creating variants at an accelerated pace. Michael Yeadon (former Pfizer VP and Chief Science Officer) believes the "vaccines" are unnecessary for most people, but he doesn't trust Vanden Bossche (who has a past affiliation with Gates and GAVI) and believes the threat of the variants will be used to justify boosters in the future. If you have time, I recommend this interview with Yeadon by Robert Kennedy.
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/dr-mike-yeadon-rfk-jr-the-defender-podcast-safety-mrna-vaccine-technology/.
This is Yeadon's interview with Planet Lockdown in April 2021:
https://rumble.com/vg4inv-michael-yeadon-full-interview-planet-lockdown.html
This is his original video from November 2020:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bX-wFVBP94
I apologize if I've posted these before. They provide context on his current belief about the motivations of the people behind the bizarre response of medicine and public health.
Some scientists and medical doctors are concerned that mass vaccination with these leaky "vaccines" will make the virus far more deadly to the unvaccinated. This has happened with Marek's disease in chickens. Was this concern the reason for Walensky's freak out a couple months ago?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous
Other scientists and medical doctors are concerned that these "vaccines will" enhance disease in the "vaccinated" when they are exposed in the next season. They skipped the animal trials for these "vaccines", but the animals suffered catastrophic disease with re-exposure in the efforts to create a SARS vaccine. This phenomenon was also seen with the RSV and Dengue vaccines. These same people are concerned about the long-term risk of autoimmunity and neurological disease from the mRNA and viral vector/DNA “vaccines”.
A couple weeks ago, I attended a seminar given by Dr. Sherry Tenpenny, MD, on the 20 Mechanisms of Injury of the injections. This is a high-level list from that seminar.
https://files.constantcontact.com/15c678ac701/e636ccf0-a723-4113-b414-eec1f1aa03b0.pdf
So, basically, we have no idea what's going to happen next fall. Will the "vaccines" enhance disease in the "fully vaccinated"? Will the "vaccines" create dangerous variants that will harm the unvaccinated? Will SARS-CoV-2 disappear? I'm rooting for option three.
WRT the BLM insanity last year…I realized a couple weeks ago that it was probably a distraction for those of us with functioning brains…so we wouldn’t have time to fully comprehend that this insane overreaction is global. We are the last, best hope because we are a Constitutional Republic with a Bill of Rights. Europe, especially Germany, is pretty scary right now. We must push our state and local governments to outlaw mandatory “vaccines” and “vaccine passports” and support those who are brave enough to push against the narrative.
There’s a reason for the sudden turnabout wrt the lab leak theory. We just don't know what that reason is, who made the call, and for what reason...'cause getting to the truth isn't it.
And we must continue to try to wake people up.
This is happening. They are not going to stop.
I'm pretty sure by this point, enough people have seen the intel that it became impossible for them to continue this lie. Dr. Quay's publication was also solid scientific evidence to support the lab leak and Asher could no longer cover for the powers that be.
You may be correct. However, there was ample evidence to suspect a lab origin over a year ago; and there was a forceful pushback against any suggestion of a lab origin in medicine, public health, and media that appeared to be coordinated. The media attacked and mocked Senator Cotton for suggesting the possibility. Daszak attacked Maria Bartiromo for perpetuating conspiracies. Fauci attacked. Collins attacked. This was not your garden variety counter-narrative. It was nasty. They went for the proverbial jugular to shut people up.
They never found an intermediate host. We've known for months that the NIAID funded research at the WIV through EcoHealthAlliance. We've known for months that they (whoever they are) quietly lifted the prohibition against gain-of-function research in 2017. We've known for over a year that the virus has an unusual ability to attach to the ACE2 receptor...that it has nucleotides in common with HIV (that got my attention)...and that it has unusual cardiovascular symptoms in some people.
Rand Paul's confrontation with Fauci was a tipping point, but I don't think people suddenly had an epiphany. The turnabout was sudden and without explanation...like the CDC change in mask guidance. I wonder if a group behind the scenes is making concessions to placate the masses and keep them off the scent.
Perhaps I've gone full conspiracy theory...but if it doesn't feel right...it probably isn't.
I agree, the shift of the narrative about a possible lab leak was too abrupt. Heck, even facebook said they won't be deleting posts regarding that (btw, if that doesn't open eyes regarding the true nature of most social media, I don't know what will).
Don't get me wrong, knowing the origin is important; however, I get the feeling they want to use that as a distraction. Do they want to use that as a scapegoat to avoid heavy scrutiny of lockdowns, or worse, an attempt of sorta justifying them? (something of an escape valve). Seeing how most of the masses are gullible, I wouldn't be surprised. Or perhaps the vax aren't the miracle they are spouting?
(Also, I get the feeling Fauci has already become a huge liability...)
I have been reading The Ethical Skeptic; he suspects a lab leak, but the data he has gathered has led him to suspect the leak happened around 2018. If you take into consideration that the WHO team discovered there were already around 11 circulating variants of the virus in December 2019, it is very plausible the virus has been circulating for quite a while (specially, if one takes into account coronaviruses don't mutate as fast as influenza ones).
I've being following The Ethical Skeptic as well...at least trying ;)
There are bigger forces than Fauci and Gates behind the messaging, suppression, and flip-flops. Bigger than the CCP. We just don't know who they are yet.
I totally agree. It's crazy that our polity has denigrated so thoroughly that the left would rather prop up an authoritarian communist government committing genocide before admitting that an inflammatory politician like Trump was right.
over a year ago i used to debate an anti trumper with a background in anti vietnam underground. he was sure an animal source and even stated the rumor civet or what ever. i replied 'where re the flesh samples'.... cricket to this day. i don't talk to him anymore too much a prc stoolie. which seems to correlate with the us media covid agitprop panic press.
another theory which could have been sustained but is not is: "us money was paying for surveillance of sars cov in remote prc & a sample got mishandled". any such sample would have been proved by a chain of custody, that even the wuhan lab and it's cdc money could not be so negligent....... i do not accept that idea at all, but it was going around some smart questioners i know last year. proly a plant from prc influencers.
I doubt we'll ever know the truth about the origin of the virus. The civet cat was implicated in SARS within months. Early on, the pangolin was implicated as an intermediate host for SARS-CoV-2...but that story disappeared.
There were a few key problems with the Huanan Market/animal origin story. First, they didn't sell bats or pangolins in the market. It's a fish market. And, second, about 40% of the early cases had no connection to the market direct or indirect. The paper was published by Chinese doctors before the CCP could suppress it. I have the link on my old laptop...haven't transferred it yet.
I don't think the virus naturally evolved...certainly not in the time frame they promote. It may be a bio-weapon. The closest virus found in the wild was identified by the Chinese military. It may have been an accidental release...a lab worker became infected with an enhanced virus and spread it to the community.
One thing is clear, though, the Chinese government lied through their teeth early on in the outbreak about transmissibility. Millions of Chinese citizens traveled all over the world and seeded the virus. The spread was intentional even if the release was accidental.
There is no doubt that money was sent to WIV from NIAID through EcoHealth Alliance. Whether that money was used to do gof research is unknown and may never be known. I'm not sure it matters. Money is fungible. The US taxpayer should not be subsidizing biological research in China, especially when the labs involved have connections to the Chinese military.
Here's an article about antibody persistence following mild infection...https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/good-news-mild-covid-19-induces-lasting-antibody-protection/?fbclid=IwAR1yJLh22mOjgnADcVeYQbdgSEVJ_pVmCyjiUlr2pAf8V6EUXY3AaUx-xZs
It is long since pas time for a Nuremberg Trial 2.0 to "ask some very pointed questions" and to bring indictments with prison terms for the bio-fascists who are perpetuating this long-con.
ignore cdc and the sponsors in pfizer & jnj...... b, and t cells last a long time, and the learned cells are where the anti bodies they see eroding were made
getting to be pitch fork and torches time for cdc and big pharma!
Wondering how many people who got the vaccine had already had Covid-19? How many of them never had symptoms, were never tested, and didn't know they were already protected with antibodies? If you are considering getting the vaccine, think about getting tested first.
it's beyond antibodies. those fade rapidly when not in use. it's the memory of when and how to make them that persists along with numerous other vectors of response (like t-cells). if you had covid several months ago, you will likely no longer have significant antibody levels. this does not mean you are not resistant or that your immunity has degraded. it just means it's not active right this moment.
There's a commercial test for T cells now. https://www.t-detect.com/covid-19/for-patients/
Is it possible to know if you had an asymptomatic case months ago? How would one find out?
i'm not sure there is any readily accessible way to know.
i mean, if you had access to a full lab and could take your blood or cells and challenge it with covid19 and see if you immediately respond, maybe you could, but i'm not aware of any definitive way to know if you have already had it other than having had symptomatic presentation and positive IgG or PCR around that time.
being antibody negative now is not proof you never had it.
There is a privately available TCell test with supposed good specificity. Cost about $200.
https://www.t-detect.com/covid-19/for-patients/
one negative, the t cell test would close down a lot of vaccine "demand" we cannot have that!
cost is not an issue the whole panic has been cost plus no upper bound on economic tragedy like any dod boondoggle weapon which occasionally run out of poitical support.
if the republic survives, which i fear it won't, we may know actuals in 2040....
https://www.t-detect.com/covid-19/for-patients/
how come it is not free like the hyper sensitive pcr....?
They're probably hoping people won't pay for it, so they can continue the fear mongering through the fall.
boston metro, the ball games will open up to 100% after Memorial Day.
the next chance for fear and propaganda is fl and tx go in to the north tropic exposure (hope simpson) around 4th july
i hope natural and vaxx immunity won't give the propagandists new dodges.
Just finished joe Rogan’s interview with Josh Rogan & really explained how China censors & controls the narrative
at a 28Ct PCR test, how far back in time can you have had Covid-19 and expect a positive test result?
I think 3 months approx. typical amount of time you would still test positive for antibodies. Also coincidentally the recommended amount of time you are supposed to wait after having covid to get the vaccine.
Thanks. Why do you think that? Any data?
None that I can think of. I’ve read many “reports” that claim it which is why I say typically. Many anecdotal stories of more and less. Also, I don’t think the quality of the antibody test is great.
I don't listen to reports any more without data. The Cat uses data.
Valid point
You can test positive for roughly 100 days, although I don't know if that's true at 28. It certainly is for 35-40.
There is a T cell test now...https://www.t-detect.com/covid-19/for-patients/
high ct more chance of "picking up" rna fragments that are long deceased
I believe it's months...if not longer. Great question. We were discussing this last night at dinner with friends. But of course no one knew the answer....just like we struggled for the past year to find answers to many questions (that should not have been even questions in the first place!)