Agree 1000%. Best not to forget that the strong philanthropist interest in public schooling in the 19th century wasn't for the cultivation of free thought in the populace but rather the molding of "good" i.e. well-regulated citizens who'd make good workers i.e. not innovative small-scale entrepreneurs...
We were born a rebellious people. And they've been trying to beat it out of us ever since...
Agree 1000%. Best not to forget that the strong philanthropist interest in public schooling in the 19th century wasn't for the cultivation of free thought in the populace but rather the molding of "good" i.e. well-regulated citizens who'd make good workers i.e. not innovative small-scale entrepreneurs...
We were born a rebellious people. And they've been trying to beat it out of us ever since...
interestingly enough, there was a MASSIVE short term collapse (referred to as a "bottleneck" in the genetic diversity of the y chromosome when humans settled down for agriculture.
i have long suspected this was the "culling" of the more independent minded males by the folks that wound up in charge.
they needed folks that would do as they were told and accept ideas like "this is all my land, and if you want to farm it, you must give me half your crop."
clearly, this is a complex and double edges issue for it's not clear that civilization beyond the small chimpanzee tribe is really possible without it.
but it does give one pause. the genetics of a human are far more similar to a domesticated animal than a wild one.
it's quite possible we were eugenically bred to it. (though there is a selection argument around cooperation that could easily be made as well)
Never considered the domestication of humans before. Sure I understand how agriculture changed everything and how humans domesticated animals but never considered how we domesticated ourselves in the process.
There's a reason for all those petty-fiefdom wars all the time. You gotta get rid of that excess testosterone somehow. You don't want none o' them Hans Kolhase-types runnin' around and ruining the civility...
After I retired from full-time employment, I got a seasonal job working as a tour guide in a children's farm in NYC serving upwards of 4,000 daily visitors, mostly public school kids overwhelmingly from poor communities. That's how I learned that our urban school system is just a gangster factory. The pre-school- and kindergarten-aged black kids were delightful--enthusiastic, thinking every adult was their friend, asking wonderful questions--and by third grade they'd learned that most of what came out of grownups' mouths was best ignored. That no one gave a damn about them and they were on their own. When you see that day after day for twelve or more seasons, trust me--it's not anecdotal, it's data. And it wasn't white teachers doing it to them (those teachers were just morons) but the ones supposedly necessary to prevent, you know, spirit murder...
41 years in public schools. There are hovercraft parents who genuinely want more than the best for their kids and there are adults and kids living in the same home (can't use the term parent in this situation)- very little middle ground! I have to add that the only time I saw real prejudice and discrimination were the kids who attended school and had already been told by people at home that everyone in schools is racist. ("you don't like me because I am black")- out of nowhere in a group setting one day. hmmm....public education has been the first and last place where everyone gets a fair chance (and can ask for do-overs most of the time). Sadly this too is changing.
I think the Oregon public schools have some "diversity equity" etc. training resources for staff and teachers insisting that white teachers perform "spirit murder" of black and minority children.
Having seen for myself--over and over--how some black NYC public school teachers treat little black boys, I'm afraid I tend to disagree with that pedagogical declaration. Good teachers are good, bad ones are dreadful for the future of children. But there is of course no substitute for good parents (and even functionally illiterate ones can "read" picture books to their toddlers). And look--I had dreadful parents myself. I'm from lower middle class people and grew up in a lovely neighborhood, and my mother never stopped remarking, throughout my adulthood, that I'd have more money now if I hadn't spent so much on books...I was lucky to have had enough brains and natural language skills to make my way in the world reasonably successfully. Too many children have everything against them and no refuge against it.
Daughter works with the "throw aways"- her stories about them break my heart. The behavioral facility does wonderful things for these kids-the staff for the most part is wonderful. Covid restrictions, especially the stupid "quarantine if you have been exposed at school" is doing NOTHING to help their mental health (that they are being SEEN for btw-makes my head hurt!) I have witnessed so many parents just sign their kids over to the state and abandon them. How can one ever find trust and love after that?
Wow. As Mister Rogers used to say, "you learn something old every day." Oregon is a lovely state, but that's the only positive thing I can say about it based on what I read and see. You are 100% correct that there is no substitute for good parents, including fathers. I grew up without one due to abandonment. I can identify w/the dreadful parents comment! Being a survivor (and not a victim) is a gift, but it is also a choice.
My public school volunteering was helping children with reading skills and in some cases teaching them how to read. I had some lovely children, it was the teachers I couldn't stand! The experience set in stone my belief that government schools are not there to educate children, but to indoctrinate them. It's an especially poor substitute for parents who have abdicated their role in training their children.
John Taylor Gatto (sorry, didn't look at the spelling, obviously no relation to you ЁЯШ╕) wrote Dumbing Us Down - the hidden curriculum of compulsory schooling, and The Underground History of American Education. He was an award winning teacher in NY public schools. His work is popular among homeschoolers and other non-government school proponents.
Far too many parents--as I was--are entirely dependent on the childminding main purpose of schooling now that almost all of us must be two-earner households. For elementary school I had my kid in a "prestigious" but academically mostly useless private school that provided aftercare too, stretching close to 6:30 p.m. From kindergarten he had an adult schedule, really, between drop-off and pick-up. If I could have afforded to stay home I would have; I did for middle school onward (for complicated reasons) and the financial sacrifice (and ensuing destruction of my marriage) were worth it to be there for my kid (yes, even the big ones need you to be not exhausted or already in bed when they're ready to talk about their lives). Women don't need childcare as much as they need a system that ensures they have social security benefits for retirement if they choose to stay home and raise their children so they don't end up dependent on the vicissitudes of marriage to keep them from starvation in their golden years.
And just to clarify--it wasn't to pay the tuition that I had to work. I'd have needed to do that anyway and our zoned public school was so over-subscribed I don't know where he'd have ended up.
Agree 1000%. Best not to forget that the strong philanthropist interest in public schooling in the 19th century wasn't for the cultivation of free thought in the populace but rather the molding of "good" i.e. well-regulated citizens who'd make good workers i.e. not innovative small-scale entrepreneurs...
We were born a rebellious people. And they've been trying to beat it out of us ever since...
interestingly enough, there was a MASSIVE short term collapse (referred to as a "bottleneck" in the genetic diversity of the y chromosome when humans settled down for agriculture.
i have long suspected this was the "culling" of the more independent minded males by the folks that wound up in charge.
they needed folks that would do as they were told and accept ideas like "this is all my land, and if you want to farm it, you must give me half your crop."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/
clearly, this is a complex and double edges issue for it's not clear that civilization beyond the small chimpanzee tribe is really possible without it.
but it does give one pause. the genetics of a human are far more similar to a domesticated animal than a wild one.
it's quite possible we were eugenically bred to it. (though there is a selection argument around cooperation that could easily be made as well)
Never considered the domestication of humans before. Sure I understand how agriculture changed everything and how humans domesticated animals but never considered how we domesticated ourselves in the process.
There's a reason for all those petty-fiefdom wars all the time. You gotta get rid of that excess testosterone somehow. You don't want none o' them Hans Kolhase-types runnin' around and ruining the civility...
https://plandemicseries.com/plandemic-english-subtitles/
After I retired from full-time employment, I got a seasonal job working as a tour guide in a children's farm in NYC serving upwards of 4,000 daily visitors, mostly public school kids overwhelmingly from poor communities. That's how I learned that our urban school system is just a gangster factory. The pre-school- and kindergarten-aged black kids were delightful--enthusiastic, thinking every adult was their friend, asking wonderful questions--and by third grade they'd learned that most of what came out of grownups' mouths was best ignored. That no one gave a damn about them and they were on their own. When you see that day after day for twelve or more seasons, trust me--it's not anecdotal, it's data. And it wasn't white teachers doing it to them (those teachers were just morons) but the ones supposedly necessary to prevent, you know, spirit murder...
41 years in public schools. There are hovercraft parents who genuinely want more than the best for their kids and there are adults and kids living in the same home (can't use the term parent in this situation)- very little middle ground! I have to add that the only time I saw real prejudice and discrimination were the kids who attended school and had already been told by people at home that everyone in schools is racist. ("you don't like me because I am black")- out of nowhere in a group setting one day. hmmm....public education has been the first and last place where everyone gets a fair chance (and can ask for do-overs most of the time). Sadly this too is changing.
Can you explain what you mean by the last sentence? I've had similar experiences volunteering (post-homeschooling) in a public school.
I think the Oregon public schools have some "diversity equity" etc. training resources for staff and teachers insisting that white teachers perform "spirit murder" of black and minority children.
Having seen for myself--over and over--how some black NYC public school teachers treat little black boys, I'm afraid I tend to disagree with that pedagogical declaration. Good teachers are good, bad ones are dreadful for the future of children. But there is of course no substitute for good parents (and even functionally illiterate ones can "read" picture books to their toddlers). And look--I had dreadful parents myself. I'm from lower middle class people and grew up in a lovely neighborhood, and my mother never stopped remarking, throughout my adulthood, that I'd have more money now if I hadn't spent so much on books...I was lucky to have had enough brains and natural language skills to make my way in the world reasonably successfully. Too many children have everything against them and no refuge against it.
Daughter works with the "throw aways"- her stories about them break my heart. The behavioral facility does wonderful things for these kids-the staff for the most part is wonderful. Covid restrictions, especially the stupid "quarantine if you have been exposed at school" is doing NOTHING to help their mental health (that they are being SEEN for btw-makes my head hurt!) I have witnessed so many parents just sign their kids over to the state and abandon them. How can one ever find trust and love after that?
Wow. As Mister Rogers used to say, "you learn something old every day." Oregon is a lovely state, but that's the only positive thing I can say about it based on what I read and see. You are 100% correct that there is no substitute for good parents, including fathers. I grew up without one due to abandonment. I can identify w/the dreadful parents comment! Being a survivor (and not a victim) is a gift, but it is also a choice.
My public school volunteering was helping children with reading skills and in some cases teaching them how to read. I had some lovely children, it was the teachers I couldn't stand! The experience set in stone my belief that government schools are not there to educate children, but to indoctrinate them. It's an especially poor substitute for parents who have abdicated their role in training their children.
Sounds like you've been reading John Taylor Gato. Spot on!
at the risk of sounding contrary, who is john taylor what has he written?
John Taylor Gatto (sorry, didn't look at the spelling, obviously no relation to you ЁЯШ╕) wrote Dumbing Us Down - the hidden curriculum of compulsory schooling, and The Underground History of American Education. He was an award winning teacher in NY public schools. His work is popular among homeschoolers and other non-government school proponents.
Here's his magnum opus:
https://archive.org/details/JohnTaylorGattoTheUndergroundHistoryOfAmericanEducationBook
My work here is done
This was my excellent introduction to Gatto, cofifying all my suspicions about what was wrong with my schooling:
https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~abatko/interests/teaching/essays/Against_Schools/
His books are life changing. He was NYC teacher of the year in 1990. Here is his acceptance speech https://www.naturalchild.org/articles/guest/john_gatto.html
"The Six Purposes of Schooling" - John Taylor Gatto https://youtu.be/eP98ZKt709A
"Examples of Educated People" - John Taylor Gatto on CSPAN https://youtu.be/WpycMRTBrfY
Guynoir shared a link to an article Gatto wrote referencing the same Inglis purposes of schooling. Nice to know there are people reading this stuff!
"Dumbing Us Down" is perhaps his best known. Basic philosophy that guided us 1980s homeschooling rebels.
Far too many parents--as I was--are entirely dependent on the childminding main purpose of schooling now that almost all of us must be two-earner households. For elementary school I had my kid in a "prestigious" but academically mostly useless private school that provided aftercare too, stretching close to 6:30 p.m. From kindergarten he had an adult schedule, really, between drop-off and pick-up. If I could have afforded to stay home I would have; I did for middle school onward (for complicated reasons) and the financial sacrifice (and ensuing destruction of my marriage) were worth it to be there for my kid (yes, even the big ones need you to be not exhausted or already in bed when they're ready to talk about their lives). Women don't need childcare as much as they need a system that ensures they have social security benefits for retirement if they choose to stay home and raise their children so they don't end up dependent on the vicissitudes of marriage to keep them from starvation in their golden years.
And just to clarify--it wasn't to pay the tuition that I had to work. I'd have needed to do that anyway and our zoned public school was so over-subscribed I don't know where he'd have ended up.
Everything I ever learned (of value) I learned from direct experience. There's nothing like life to larn ya some!
ЁЯФе