This data source would be even better if they divided the non-vaxxed into "Can't be vaccinated" and "Do not wish to be vaccinated". There is likely to be a significant cohort of people who are unable for medical reasons to take the vaccines, and at the same time are immuno-compromised. These people will die of covid at a higher rate than…
This data source would be even better if they divided the non-vaxxed into "Can't be vaccinated" and "Do not wish to be vaccinated". There is likely to be a significant cohort of people who are unable for medical reasons to take the vaccines, and at the same time are immuno-compromised. These people will die of covid at a higher rate than average, and increase the death rate in the "non-vaxxed categories".
The fact that it would be very helpful to discern between "can't be vaxxed" and "don't want to be vaxxed" is exactly why it's not tracked. I've had concerns about the "can't be vaxxed" group screwing with vaccine efficacy data for quite some time. Given the age cohort of those most likely to experience hospitalization and death (over 65) from covid, is also the age cohort that likely includes the largest group of people too unhealthy to be vaccinated, how much excess hospitalization and death is being attributed to the unvaccinated because of this?
Now I'm not saying the vaccines aren't reducing hospitalization and death. They could be, but I just don't really know. As is everything to do with covid, there's just such a dearth of good, uncorrupted data.
I have always suspected that the last remaining benefit of the vaccines is a mirage due to the cohort of 80+ who cannot be vaccinated because they are too frail. In the UK essentially 100% of 70-79 year olds were vaccinated back in Sep. At that time only 80% of 80+. At that time it corresponded to something like 250k unvaccinated, very frail old timers who were the true source of "unvaccinated deaths". If you remove these then I suspect that there is no difference of preventing death if you are vaccinated or not. It all depends on the condition of the patient.
In the US at least, we have really strong evidence that the unvaxxed are worse off health wise. The CDC released a study a few months ago showing the vaxxed were less likely to die of all causes, even non Covid causes. But the Pfizer and Moderna trials both showed zero effect on all cause mortality. These two were randomized controlled trials with a combined N~80k.
When an RCT shows no effect and an observational study shows a strong effect, the only conclusion you can draw is that the sample populations are very different between the two groups in the observational study. Ie, the people being vaccinated in the US are much healthier than the unvaccinated, at least on average.
Given the impact health has on Covid outcomes, not accounting for this bias is overstating the benefits of vaccination.
Right the jabs make one a superhero! I recall that from the pfizer ad! I'd think the only way to draw such a conclusion as you are making is to group and report all cohorts: never jabbed, once jabbed, twice jabbed, thrice jabbed, etc.
Link to study? I am unaware of any true RCT studies being done with the mRNA gene therapies. Whistleblowers are reporting data manipulation, unblinding, and we know they all did away with their control groups a few months in- I would not trust any studies from the companies themselves at this point, and anything from the CDC deserves heavy public scrutiny.
I mean, the studies the vax manufacturers did showed zero efficacy against all cause hospitalization and death. In fact, more people in the vaccine arm of the Pfizer study showed serious events than in the placebo arm.
That’s the point – if the vaccines do nothing when the two populations are equivalent then if you see a difference when the populations are not equivalent, the only thing you can conclude is that the vaccinated were much healthier people to begin with. So showing that they are less likely to die from Covid doesn’t mean the vaccine is the reason – it could be that they started out healthier.
That's true with flu vaccines. Healthy, hypochondriac seniors get them while the frail elderly do not to the same extent. So this falsely leads to the assumption that flu vaccines are "effective".
I meant they were healthier *prior to being vaccinated*. It’s important for people to recognize they started out healthier. So even if you see them mostly the same later, that represents a degradation in health after vaccination.
What are some plausible mechanisms by which US low socioeconomic groups were so disproportionately negatively impacted? It could be the treatment received (drugs, ventilators), the lack of care (for covid and non-covid since many use ER as primary care and that may have been largely closed off), overdoses, etc. I am most interested in understanding the dominant treatment protocols in various countries.
In merry old England, one group that is resisting the vaccines is the West Indies communities. They are suspicious of all authorities (Police, Social Services, Councils, etc.) and thus big government turning up with their "take this vaccine" message just doesn't resonate with them. As rapper Zuby pointed out in an interview in Triggernometry, where is the preventative Vit D and Zinc program for communities with dark skin in our northern climes during winter ? The UK government has tried one thing and is all out of ideas . . .
most people in the US are vitamin D deficient and deficient in magnesium as well. Low socioeconomic groups in particular have a higher incidence of heart disease, obesity, diabetes and pre-diabetes than the upper middle class. Upper middle class can afford supplements and higher quality food. Not difficult to understand the difference in mortality. More pre-existing conditions = higher mortality rate.
Add to that those unvaxxed categories with natural immunity who don't need the vax.
In another point, Omicron hitting NI fairly high amount, but seems like a flu. I'm doubtful this is a real Co19 variant and just some covid flu that had been weak out there, but the vaxxed have given it a great host.
Speaking my language. Our family had Covid back in Jan 2020 and my eldest has now had it twice (again in Dec 2021, with 2 days of a snotty nose and a week of coughing, 3 lateral flows confirmed). We don't need the vaccinations.
I'm not a statistician but I'd be interested to know if any of the "previously infected" cohort are also jabbed and, if so, before or after having had Covid. Is getting jabbed after infection messing up a person's immune system? Does getting Covid after the jab give a person as complete natural immunity as an unjabbed recovered person or can the jab still compromise immunity? I know OhMyCron! can cause a second infection in anybody but it would be interesting to know the breakdown.
This data source would be even better if they divided the non-vaxxed into "Can't be vaccinated" and "Do not wish to be vaccinated". There is likely to be a significant cohort of people who are unable for medical reasons to take the vaccines, and at the same time are immuno-compromised. These people will die of covid at a higher rate than average, and increase the death rate in the "non-vaxxed categories".
The fact that it would be very helpful to discern between "can't be vaxxed" and "don't want to be vaxxed" is exactly why it's not tracked. I've had concerns about the "can't be vaxxed" group screwing with vaccine efficacy data for quite some time. Given the age cohort of those most likely to experience hospitalization and death (over 65) from covid, is also the age cohort that likely includes the largest group of people too unhealthy to be vaccinated, how much excess hospitalization and death is being attributed to the unvaccinated because of this?
Now I'm not saying the vaccines aren't reducing hospitalization and death. They could be, but I just don't really know. As is everything to do with covid, there's just such a dearth of good, uncorrupted data.
It’s weird. Almost as if there’s a dearth of uncorrupted data for a purpose. Wonder what that could be......
I have always suspected that the last remaining benefit of the vaccines is a mirage due to the cohort of 80+ who cannot be vaccinated because they are too frail. In the UK essentially 100% of 70-79 year olds were vaccinated back in Sep. At that time only 80% of 80+. At that time it corresponded to something like 250k unvaccinated, very frail old timers who were the true source of "unvaccinated deaths". If you remove these then I suspect that there is no difference of preventing death if you are vaccinated or not. It all depends on the condition of the patient.
In the US at least, we have really strong evidence that the unvaxxed are worse off health wise. The CDC released a study a few months ago showing the vaxxed were less likely to die of all causes, even non Covid causes. But the Pfizer and Moderna trials both showed zero effect on all cause mortality. These two were randomized controlled trials with a combined N~80k.
When an RCT shows no effect and an observational study shows a strong effect, the only conclusion you can draw is that the sample populations are very different between the two groups in the observational study. Ie, the people being vaccinated in the US are much healthier than the unvaccinated, at least on average.
Given the impact health has on Covid outcomes, not accounting for this bias is overstating the benefits of vaccination.
Right the jabs make one a superhero! I recall that from the pfizer ad! I'd think the only way to draw such a conclusion as you are making is to group and report all cohorts: never jabbed, once jabbed, twice jabbed, thrice jabbed, etc.
Link to study? I am unaware of any true RCT studies being done with the mRNA gene therapies. Whistleblowers are reporting data manipulation, unblinding, and we know they all did away with their control groups a few months in- I would not trust any studies from the companies themselves at this point, and anything from the CDC deserves heavy public scrutiny.
I mean, the studies the vax manufacturers did showed zero efficacy against all cause hospitalization and death. In fact, more people in the vaccine arm of the Pfizer study showed serious events than in the placebo arm.
That’s the point – if the vaccines do nothing when the two populations are equivalent then if you see a difference when the populations are not equivalent, the only thing you can conclude is that the vaccinated were much healthier people to begin with. So showing that they are less likely to die from Covid doesn’t mean the vaccine is the reason – it could be that they started out healthier.
Ah, that wasn't very clear in your initial post, thank you for clarifying.
That's true with flu vaccines. Healthy, hypochondriac seniors get them while the frail elderly do not to the same extent. So this falsely leads to the assumption that flu vaccines are "effective".
Yes - the vaxxed are so much more healthy hahahahahahaha https://openvaers.com/covid-data
I meant they were healthier *prior to being vaccinated*. It’s important for people to recognize they started out healthier. So even if you see them mostly the same later, that represents a degradation in health after vaccination.
Would be curious to get your thoughts on the following, not peer-reviewed, study:
https://denisrancourt.ca/uploads_entries/1635189453861_USA%20ACM%20into%202021%20-%20article----12d.pdf
What are some plausible mechanisms by which US low socioeconomic groups were so disproportionately negatively impacted? It could be the treatment received (drugs, ventilators), the lack of care (for covid and non-covid since many use ER as primary care and that may have been largely closed off), overdoses, etc. I am most interested in understanding the dominant treatment protocols in various countries.
In merry old England, one group that is resisting the vaccines is the West Indies communities. They are suspicious of all authorities (Police, Social Services, Councils, etc.) and thus big government turning up with their "take this vaccine" message just doesn't resonate with them. As rapper Zuby pointed out in an interview in Triggernometry, where is the preventative Vit D and Zinc program for communities with dark skin in our northern climes during winter ? The UK government has tried one thing and is all out of ideas . . .
most people in the US are vitamin D deficient and deficient in magnesium as well. Low socioeconomic groups in particular have a higher incidence of heart disease, obesity, diabetes and pre-diabetes than the upper middle class. Upper middle class can afford supplements and higher quality food. Not difficult to understand the difference in mortality. More pre-existing conditions = higher mortality rate.
Agree, and the hospitals available to those of us in rural areas may have inferior outcomes for various conditions, with or without COVID.
Add to that those unvaxxed categories with natural immunity who don't need the vax.
In another point, Omicron hitting NI fairly high amount, but seems like a flu. I'm doubtful this is a real Co19 variant and just some covid flu that had been weak out there, but the vaxxed have given it a great host.
Speaking my language. Our family had Covid back in Jan 2020 and my eldest has now had it twice (again in Dec 2021, with 2 days of a snotty nose and a week of coughing, 3 lateral flows confirmed). We don't need the vaccinations.
I'm not a statistician but I'd be interested to know if any of the "previously infected" cohort are also jabbed and, if so, before or after having had Covid. Is getting jabbed after infection messing up a person's immune system? Does getting Covid after the jab give a person as complete natural immunity as an unjabbed recovered person or can the jab still compromise immunity? I know OhMyCron! can cause a second infection in anybody but it would be interesting to know the breakdown.