I still can’t wrap my mind around the tribal divide on this issue. Somehow, the “conservatives” have become the “my body, my choice” group, and the “progressives” have become the “moral authority” group. Freedom of religion is generally a liberal value. In fact, all of the beliefs propping up this new religion of technocracy are fundamen…
I still can’t wrap my mind around the tribal divide on this issue. Somehow, the “conservatives” have become the “my body, my choice” group, and the “progressives” have become the “moral authority” group. Freedom of religion is generally a liberal value. In fact, all of the beliefs propping up this new religion of technocracy are fundamentally illiberal. How can liberals support this regime? The easy answer is that the current progressive movement guiding the left is not liberal. But where did all of the liberals go?
I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that so many people think that conservatives have only recently come to support "my body, my choice". I know that's an abortion reference, and it's a fact that conservatives have LONG supported "my body, my choice."
It's the *Left* and Libs and Democrats who insist the baby has no say in the matter, who insist the baby's body has no advocate.
So if anyone is consistent on the "my body, my choice" matter, it is *only* conservatives.
Sorry if I was unclear. Not directed at you in particular, just in regards to the abortion argument. The "my body my choice" argument fails to acknowledge there is another person involved, and is morally akin to dragging a stranger into the house and killing them for the inconvenience.
Sixteen seconds into Carlin's piece and it's clear it's not going to shed any intellectual light on the issue.
We're going to rely on the US Census to define a "human being"? Are funerals REQUIRED when someone dies?
Has any fetus ever turned out to be something other than a human being? Like, a fox, or an elephant, or a corner table? Is a fetus' DNA identical to that of its mother?
So even if the two-month-old toddler is "fully conscious", it requires my body so it's my choice if I want to ... terminate it.
I'll note using YOUR words that you say that a woman can kill a baby. A baby. A human baby. A separate living creature, a human creature. A human baby. The woman can exercise HER bodily choice by killing a DIFFERENT human body.
It is an abortion reference, but conservatives have also traditionally been conservative about forms of bodily expression such as piercings, tattoos, clothing choices, hair styles. Also, sexual preferences. Also, assisted suicide. Also, drugs. Although, the recent anti-smoking, soda tax, and health food pushes have come from progressives. Maybe progressives will become anti-abortion when then realize that it is racist.
Being conservative about bodily expression is manifest by our distaste for it, not by efforts to ban it. Ditto sexual preferences. Conservatives may find certain things distasteful, but we (most of us) aren't trying to ban them.
With regard to assisted suicide (note that you qualified it with "assisted" and not just "suicide"), the opposition to it is grounded in the fact that in many cases the individual is not competent to make the decision (or are not free of coercion in the decision); similarly, it's why competence (and the absence of duress) is a necessary element of a valid contract or will. I don't think it's anti-my body/my choice to oppose contracts and wills signed by incompetent people (or those under duress).
Drugs, I suppose I'll agree with you there, at least with regard to recreational drugs, although I can see similarities with the opposition to assisted suicide. To wit: those on drugs are not in position to make competent decisions. Also, IINM, William F. Buckley, Jr. - a conservative's conservative if ever there were one - favored decriminalizing drugs. So there's that.
I am so with you! I struggle every day trying to understand this. It's been shocking to see the progressive left descend into fascism. It's like everyone swapped sides. There's some weird voodoo going on. Seriously.
The progressives have always been fascists, or, as Benito preferred calling it, corporatist.
Woodrow Wilson gave us the Federal Reserve and Income Tax, two of the greatest engines of mass theft in the history of the world, and without which the leviathan progressive State that now afflicts us could not exist.
It is this gigantic river of our stolen money that allows the State to divide us, rule us, reward or punish us, fund legions of court economists, scientists, doctors and other "experts" to validate its depredations, finance concentric circles of crony businesses and media that do its bidding and parrot its propaganda, and continuously and increasingly enrich itself at our expense.
Prior to the Progressive Era (which really has not ended) the US was the most free, prosperous nation in the world, with the highest rates of economic growth in history.
In about a century, the progressives transformed our nation into a gigantic DMV where we are extorted for countless "fees" for "licenses" to engage in the most mundane activities, like owning a dog or cutting other people's hair.
If we are ever to regain our freedoms, the beast must be starved. The window of opportunity before the beast gets too powerful to starve has either already closed or only has a sliver of daylight left.
Yes. The legalization of theft through income taxes and money printing has allowed a bloated leviathan to hold hostage our hospitals, universities, livelihoods, everything. If we are to escape the stranglehold of globalist elites, the centralization of power must end, and sovereignty returned to individuals and their local communities. End the Fed. End all abc departments. Repeal the 16th amendment, or at minimum, convert to a flat tax--no exemptions, no deductions, no subsidies. This would be a start.
The US Federal government is completely bankrupt and far past the point of no return. It is now in a position where the bulk of its expenditures are funded by the central bank, Zimbabwe-style.
This is completely, as our leftist friends like to say, "unsustainable".
Every fiat currency in history, and every empire that fell into the fiat trap, has collapsed, and it is no different now.
It will end. The only question is when, and how bad it will be.
"The champions of socialism call themselves progressives, but they recommend a system which is characterized by rigid observance of routine and by a resistance to every kind of improvement. They call themselves liberals, but they are intent upon abolishing liberty. They call themselves democrats, but they yearn for dictatorship. They call themselves revolutionaries, but they want to make the government omnipotent. They promise the blessings of the Garden of Eden, but they plan to transform the world into a gigantic post office. Every man but one a subordinate clerk in a bureau. What an alluring utopia! What a noble cause to fight!"
It has led me to the hypothesis that the base conservative and progressive movements are in a circle chasing each other. Progressives believe that they are in a constant forward trajectory for the betterment of society, but they are really just going in a circle and trying out old values and structures that fell out of favor and were forgotten. The conservatives are just trying to maintain values that were a few decades old. And somehow progressives have returned to global fascism and technocracy as the belief system of the day.
"Political tags, such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth, are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
~ Robert Heinlein
There are those who adhere to the non-aggression principle, and then there is everyone else.
Main Street Democrats are just now waking up to the fact that their party is the party of Wall Street, Big Pharma, the Media, and 'lockdown' corporations like WalMart/Amazon.
Some are waking up mainly because they or people they know are getting the Rona despite being vaxed and often boosted. Some fmr zombie Dems are pretty pissed off about this.
The interesting thing, though, is that “freedom of religion” in the liberal/progressive mindset has come to mean, “as long as you don’t disagree with me”. Same for “freedom of choice”, and “tolerance” So, as you say, when did the meaning of everything become opposite of its face-value meaning? I say, when you lose your moral compass (Truth vs. truth), your object of faith becomes yourself. And we ALL have an object of faith.
How many actually religious lefties do you know? Because I used to, pre jab mandate, work at a blue state college, and EVERY lefty who made sure to advocate for hijab-wearing and Kwanzaa was also FAR TOO SMART to believe in a God. The left wants their voting blocks religious, because it lets them continue to look down on blacks (excuse me Blacks), latinos (excuse me LatinX), and Muslims as slightly more ignorant folk they (the lefties) are virtuously championing. Zen Buddhism in moderation is okay (because meditation, you know, self-care), and some lite Hinduism (because astrology), but no way does a left/liberal surrender their precious 'smarts' to a God or gods. Ask a lefty/liberal how they feel about a Christian who refused vaccines before Covid, based on fetal stem-cell lines, and you'd get an eye roll of disgust. The majority (and I know, there are exceptions) have been hypocrites about religion for years....
I wish I could like this a thousand times. Religion is, y'know, worthy as the domain of the noble savage, but civilized New Americans should know better, especially those with the stain of genetic original sin.
Liberalism is a well- intended suicide pact and progressivism isn't liberal.
Liberal thought celebrated diversity as it was marched to the gallows and used the correct pronouns to thank its executioner for a culturally unique experience.
The so-called "progressives", really "marxists" with a more marketable name, infiltrated and took over the 60s "liberals", who themselves were far more libertine than liberal. That entire ideology has absolutely loved to twist language.
’When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
It's simple: Trump literally broke their brains. The emotional intensity of being constantly taunted traumatized them, causing them to seek the safety of an authoritarian society that would protect them from mean people. It's that pathetic...
As a Progressive, I feel deserted by my former allies. I'm disgusted by their embrace of censorship and the intelligence community. What a violation of everything we've believed in!
That's entirely uncalled for. Even if it were true, arguendo, the fact that I'm here should mean to you that I'm open to learning about deep issues. Your shaming/blaming statement just pushes me away.
Too often, I see people on the right call everyone else a communist or totalitarian. I think that's lazy namecalling that fails to understand what those terms mean. If our opposition to tyranny is going to be effective, we're going to have to work together with a lot of good will towards people formerly from other camps.
Oh, I understand what the terms 'communist' and 'totalitarian' mean. Please, continue telling me what to do. I love being lectured by progressives on how to behave properly.
Is the lack of a capital "P" a microaggression? I'm never sure who rates capitalization and who gets spit on these days.
Too often, I see everyone on the right assume anyone who disagrees with them is a Trump worshipper. (I'm addressing the part of your comment that has since mysteriously disappeared.)
How'd I do? I copied your structure perfectly.
When you wave a flag, don't get butthurt if it gets shot at.
Progressive ideological madness is what has brought us to this moment. It's why BLM rioters can burn cities, loot minorities and murder dozens while the rest of us are locked in our homes and told we're plague vectors.
It's how we've gotten to the point where the definitions of words in the dictionary can change overnight and no one will bat an eye or question it, like "vaccine" or "herd immunity" or "breastfeeding."
And most of all, it's how the media, the Democrat party, and its ideological allies are able to instantly destroy the livelihoods, reputation, friendships, and families of anyone who dares disagree with them.
So yeah, when you begin proclamations with "As a Progressive (tm)," don't be shocked to discover some people don't like it.
If you're such an enlightened being as to want everyone to come together, maybe keep your divisive ideology to yourself.
But like CrossFit and veganism, they just can't resist making sure you know who they are.
The liberals have moved to the left, and they are now the only left left. Ha. But seriously, current "liberals" are authoritarian rightists, and current conservatives are becoming more libertarian, while also being rightists.
“Liberals” always serve self.. be it sexual pleasure or survival.. it’s about me, my needs my wants..,for liberal vaccines are about self survival.... conservative understand self sacrifice is needed that a vaccine that harms the young and healthy at the expense of others old and with mainly self inflicted comorbidities, is abhorrent.. that it should be withdrawn and a safer solution found... conservatives serve others at the expense of self, they go without because it’s right, not because it’s my right...
I would add that conservatives also tend to have a more instinctive grasp of the notion of individual sovereignty, as most attribute this to be the most fundamental aspect of the existence of God; that there are inalienable rights that exist whether a state happens to agree they exist or not, such as the sanctity of one's body and mind.
Agreed and I sit there...It’s true the bible and historical Christianity focused in individual responsibility...
the Good Samaritan was good because of what he did not “who” he was..the Levite and the priest walked by abdicating responsibility....Christianity Brought trial of the individual based on evidence not hearsay.. And trial by ordeal was only outlawed in England in 12 C AD showing a long history of superstition but God also judges nations..ie we are responsible for each other corporately so we feel deeply when another’s sovereignty is violated....
I detest these mandates and these vaccines because of the damage they have done...
I still can’t wrap my mind around the tribal divide on this issue. Somehow, the “conservatives” have become the “my body, my choice” group, and the “progressives” have become the “moral authority” group. Freedom of religion is generally a liberal value. In fact, all of the beliefs propping up this new religion of technocracy are fundamentally illiberal. How can liberals support this regime? The easy answer is that the current progressive movement guiding the left is not liberal. But where did all of the liberals go?
I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that so many people think that conservatives have only recently come to support "my body, my choice". I know that's an abortion reference, and it's a fact that conservatives have LONG supported "my body, my choice."
It's the *Left* and Libs and Democrats who insist the baby has no say in the matter, who insist the baby's body has no advocate.
So if anyone is consistent on the "my body, my choice" matter, it is *only* conservatives.
I agree with you about Conservatives. The very basis of the argument is at conception that is a baby with the same unalienable rights.
If you don't want a tenant, don't drag them into your house.
If I don't want a tenant? And my house? NSII.
Sorry if I was unclear. Not directed at you in particular, just in regards to the abortion argument. The "my body my choice" argument fails to acknowledge there is another person involved, and is morally akin to dragging a stranger into the house and killing them for the inconvenience.
Y'know, I kinda thought that, that you were just continuing and expanding upon my thought, but I wasn't completely sure!
Sigh, that's another belief. Even if the baby was fully conscious, it's still my body my choice
George Carlin did it great here
https://youtu.be/M-bLf4F0PM4
Sixteen seconds into Carlin's piece and it's clear it's not going to shed any intellectual light on the issue.
We're going to rely on the US Census to define a "human being"? Are funerals REQUIRED when someone dies?
Has any fetus ever turned out to be something other than a human being? Like, a fox, or an elephant, or a corner table? Is a fetus' DNA identical to that of its mother?
I hope Carlin isn't the best argument you've got.
So even if the two-month-old toddler is "fully conscious", it requires my body so it's my choice if I want to ... terminate it.
I'll note using YOUR words that you say that a woman can kill a baby. A baby. A human baby. A separate living creature, a human creature. A human baby. The woman can exercise HER bodily choice by killing a DIFFERENT human body.
Got it.
But yeah, mine is just "another belief".
He knows what he means. He means kill, and that's what they want.
It is an abortion reference, but conservatives have also traditionally been conservative about forms of bodily expression such as piercings, tattoos, clothing choices, hair styles. Also, sexual preferences. Also, assisted suicide. Also, drugs. Although, the recent anti-smoking, soda tax, and health food pushes have come from progressives. Maybe progressives will become anti-abortion when then realize that it is racist.
Being conservative about bodily expression is manifest by our distaste for it, not by efforts to ban it. Ditto sexual preferences. Conservatives may find certain things distasteful, but we (most of us) aren't trying to ban them.
With regard to assisted suicide (note that you qualified it with "assisted" and not just "suicide"), the opposition to it is grounded in the fact that in many cases the individual is not competent to make the decision (or are not free of coercion in the decision); similarly, it's why competence (and the absence of duress) is a necessary element of a valid contract or will. I don't think it's anti-my body/my choice to oppose contracts and wills signed by incompetent people (or those under duress).
Drugs, I suppose I'll agree with you there, at least with regard to recreational drugs, although I can see similarities with the opposition to assisted suicide. To wit: those on drugs are not in position to make competent decisions. Also, IINM, William F. Buckley, Jr. - a conservative's conservative if ever there were one - favored decriminalizing drugs. So there's that.
You can make yourself look like a fuckin clown, but I'm not going to date you or hire you.
Progressives would like the government to force me to do both. At gunpoint. For a fairer, kinder world.
We got chased out. For me it started when Tipper Gore started her censorship campaign years ago.
I am so with you! I struggle every day trying to understand this. It's been shocking to see the progressive left descend into fascism. It's like everyone swapped sides. There's some weird voodoo going on. Seriously.
The progressives have always been fascists, or, as Benito preferred calling it, corporatist.
Woodrow Wilson gave us the Federal Reserve and Income Tax, two of the greatest engines of mass theft in the history of the world, and without which the leviathan progressive State that now afflicts us could not exist.
It is this gigantic river of our stolen money that allows the State to divide us, rule us, reward or punish us, fund legions of court economists, scientists, doctors and other "experts" to validate its depredations, finance concentric circles of crony businesses and media that do its bidding and parrot its propaganda, and continuously and increasingly enrich itself at our expense.
Prior to the Progressive Era (which really has not ended) the US was the most free, prosperous nation in the world, with the highest rates of economic growth in history.
In about a century, the progressives transformed our nation into a gigantic DMV where we are extorted for countless "fees" for "licenses" to engage in the most mundane activities, like owning a dog or cutting other people's hair.
If we are ever to regain our freedoms, the beast must be starved. The window of opportunity before the beast gets too powerful to starve has either already closed or only has a sliver of daylight left.
Yes. The legalization of theft through income taxes and money printing has allowed a bloated leviathan to hold hostage our hospitals, universities, livelihoods, everything. If we are to escape the stranglehold of globalist elites, the centralization of power must end, and sovereignty returned to individuals and their local communities. End the Fed. End all abc departments. Repeal the 16th amendment, or at minimum, convert to a flat tax--no exemptions, no deductions, no subsidies. This would be a start.
Sounds like blood would be shed to get to that.
Not necessarily.
The US Federal government is completely bankrupt and far past the point of no return. It is now in a position where the bulk of its expenditures are funded by the central bank, Zimbabwe-style.
This is completely, as our leftist friends like to say, "unsustainable".
Every fiat currency in history, and every empire that fell into the fiat trap, has collapsed, and it is no different now.
It will end. The only question is when, and how bad it will be.
Thank you for the excellent summary. Let's see if we can wedge that window open.
"The champions of socialism call themselves progressives, but they recommend a system which is characterized by rigid observance of routine and by a resistance to every kind of improvement. They call themselves liberals, but they are intent upon abolishing liberty. They call themselves democrats, but they yearn for dictatorship. They call themselves revolutionaries, but they want to make the government omnipotent. They promise the blessings of the Garden of Eden, but they plan to transform the world into a gigantic post office. Every man but one a subordinate clerk in a bureau. What an alluring utopia! What a noble cause to fight!"
~ Ludwig von Mises, Bureaucracy
mises.org
It has led me to the hypothesis that the base conservative and progressive movements are in a circle chasing each other. Progressives believe that they are in a constant forward trajectory for the betterment of society, but they are really just going in a circle and trying out old values and structures that fell out of favor and were forgotten. The conservatives are just trying to maintain values that were a few decades old. And somehow progressives have returned to global fascism and technocracy as the belief system of the day.
"Political tags, such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth, are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
~ Robert Heinlein
There are those who adhere to the non-aggression principle, and then there is everyone else.
That’s what happens when people rewrite the history books. Good one.
Interesting! This lends credence to the belief all things are cyclical.
Main Street Democrats are just now waking up to the fact that their party is the party of Wall Street, Big Pharma, the Media, and 'lockdown' corporations like WalMart/Amazon.
Some are waking up mainly because they or people they know are getting the Rona despite being vaxed and often boosted. Some fmr zombie Dems are pretty pissed off about this.
And this is exactly what we were saying would happen all summer long. How lucky that the seasonality theorists are right again!
The interesting thing, though, is that “freedom of religion” in the liberal/progressive mindset has come to mean, “as long as you don’t disagree with me”. Same for “freedom of choice”, and “tolerance” So, as you say, when did the meaning of everything become opposite of its face-value meaning? I say, when you lose your moral compass (Truth vs. truth), your object of faith becomes yourself. And we ALL have an object of faith.
After all, if you disagree with them, you're being divisive.
How many actually religious lefties do you know? Because I used to, pre jab mandate, work at a blue state college, and EVERY lefty who made sure to advocate for hijab-wearing and Kwanzaa was also FAR TOO SMART to believe in a God. The left wants their voting blocks religious, because it lets them continue to look down on blacks (excuse me Blacks), latinos (excuse me LatinX), and Muslims as slightly more ignorant folk they (the lefties) are virtuously championing. Zen Buddhism in moderation is okay (because meditation, you know, self-care), and some lite Hinduism (because astrology), but no way does a left/liberal surrender their precious 'smarts' to a God or gods. Ask a lefty/liberal how they feel about a Christian who refused vaccines before Covid, based on fetal stem-cell lines, and you'd get an eye roll of disgust. The majority (and I know, there are exceptions) have been hypocrites about religion for years....
I wish I could like this a thousand times. Religion is, y'know, worthy as the domain of the noble savage, but civilized New Americans should know better, especially those with the stain of genetic original sin.
Exactly!!
They all caught the psychosis:(
Simple.
Liberalism is a well- intended suicide pact and progressivism isn't liberal.
Liberal thought celebrated diversity as it was marched to the gallows and used the correct pronouns to thank its executioner for a culturally unique experience.
The so-called "progressives", really "marxists" with a more marketable name, infiltrated and took over the 60s "liberals", who themselves were far more libertine than liberal. That entire ideology has absolutely loved to twist language.
’When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
It's simple: Trump literally broke their brains. The emotional intensity of being constantly taunted traumatized them, causing them to seek the safety of an authoritarian society that would protect them from mean people. It's that pathetic...
As a Progressive, I feel deserted by my former allies. I'm disgusted by their embrace of censorship and the intelligence community. What a violation of everything we've believed in!
Totalitarian rule is precisely the endpoint of everything you’ve believed in.
That's entirely uncalled for. Even if it were true, arguendo, the fact that I'm here should mean to you that I'm open to learning about deep issues. Your shaming/blaming statement just pushes me away.
Too often, I see people on the right call everyone else a communist or totalitarian. I think that's lazy namecalling that fails to understand what those terms mean. If our opposition to tyranny is going to be effective, we're going to have to work together with a lot of good will towards people formerly from other camps.
Oh, I understand what the terms 'communist' and 'totalitarian' mean. Please, continue telling me what to do. I love being lectured by progressives on how to behave properly.
Is the lack of a capital "P" a microaggression? I'm never sure who rates capitalization and who gets spit on these days.
Good luck building a movement with only your kind.
My kind? Pray tell, what's that?
Too often, I see everyone on the right assume anyone who disagrees with them is a Trump worshipper. (I'm addressing the part of your comment that has since mysteriously disappeared.)
How'd I do? I copied your structure perfectly.
When you wave a flag, don't get butthurt if it gets shot at.
Progressive ideological madness is what has brought us to this moment. It's why BLM rioters can burn cities, loot minorities and murder dozens while the rest of us are locked in our homes and told we're plague vectors.
It's how we've gotten to the point where the definitions of words in the dictionary can change overnight and no one will bat an eye or question it, like "vaccine" or "herd immunity" or "breastfeeding."
And most of all, it's how the media, the Democrat party, and its ideological allies are able to instantly destroy the livelihoods, reputation, friendships, and families of anyone who dares disagree with them.
So yeah, when you begin proclamations with "As a Progressive (tm)," don't be shocked to discover some people don't like it.
If you're such an enlightened being as to want everyone to come together, maybe keep your divisive ideology to yourself.
But like CrossFit and veganism, they just can't resist making sure you know who they are.
You are exactly right. They are STILL posting about Trump.
One of them just did.
The liberals have moved to the left, and they are now the only left left. Ha. But seriously, current "liberals" are authoritarian rightists, and current conservatives are becoming more libertarian, while also being rightists.
“Liberals” always serve self.. be it sexual pleasure or survival.. it’s about me, my needs my wants..,for liberal vaccines are about self survival.... conservative understand self sacrifice is needed that a vaccine that harms the young and healthy at the expense of others old and with mainly self inflicted comorbidities, is abhorrent.. that it should be withdrawn and a safer solution found... conservatives serve others at the expense of self, they go without because it’s right, not because it’s my right...
I would add that conservatives also tend to have a more instinctive grasp of the notion of individual sovereignty, as most attribute this to be the most fundamental aspect of the existence of God; that there are inalienable rights that exist whether a state happens to agree they exist or not, such as the sanctity of one's body and mind.
Agreed and I sit there...It’s true the bible and historical Christianity focused in individual responsibility...
the Good Samaritan was good because of what he did not “who” he was..the Levite and the priest walked by abdicating responsibility....Christianity Brought trial of the individual based on evidence not hearsay.. And trial by ordeal was only outlawed in England in 12 C AD showing a long history of superstition but God also judges nations..ie we are responsible for each other corporately so we feel deeply when another’s sovereignty is violated....
I detest these mandates and these vaccines because of the damage they have done...
If you seriously want to dig deeper...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AORn2H3hCSs