"you do not need vast conspiracies when you have widespread bad incentives. this is WHY incentives matter so much and why letting then be established with near universal reach by people seeking to serve personal and political ends is so dangerous.
there is no recruiting needed for these bad plans. the order emerges from the incentives."
"you do not need vast conspiracies when you have widespread bad incentives. this is WHY incentives matter so much and why letting then be established with near universal reach by people seeking to serve personal and political ends is so dangerous.
there is no recruiting needed for these bad plans. the order emerges from the incentives."
Valuable truth, follow the money, there is no need for conspiracy planning when greed alone delivers predictable results.
Eh, to me they seem to be the same self serving motives for misinforming or promoting an agenda. My first boss in Washington had a rule of thumb for confusing or unfounded positions, things where behavior defies common sense and reality. The answer to why someone stood by the untenable was either profound stupidity or personal gain, maybe both.
I guess I'm soft-shoeing around the fact that "conspiracy theory" is such a useful straw-man for avoidance of rational debate, and that so many of those connect-the-dot ideas themselves originate in the bowels of Langley and are spewed by the Mighty Wurlitzer into public opinion for the sole intent of muddying-the-waters and disrupting said rational debate. You didn't think MK-Ultra went away did you? We can hope that personal liability attaches this time around.
"so many of those connect-the-dot ideas themselves originate in the bowels of Langley and are spewed by the Mighty Wurlitzer into public opinion for the sole intent of muddying-the-waters and disrupting said rational debate."
What beautiful phrasing and spot on description!
"You didn't think MK-Ultra went away did you?"
Nope, never have entertained the fantasy and with good reason. My first real boss was Hon Otis Pike who chaired House counterpart to Church Committee. Unlike Church findings that were largely included in the final report, Pike's findings remain largely classified. The notable exception is parts leaked to Village Voice in 1976. Biggest lesson from that is secrets only protect their keepers, genuine NatSec is a rare exception. :~)
Thanks. I was reading The Fifth Estate and Ramparts a few years prior, and then we had quite a slew of books and zines in the 80's retailed at the original Borders Books, dancing around these subjects. Those were heady-days when we thought something beyond sex-drugs-rock 'n roll was possible. Your last bit is interesting; "secrets only protect their keepers..." I've often wondered about the '...genuine NatSec ..." part of the equation. Still do. I imagine the inclination to back-away from the rot is strong. How many of any capacity or agency are old enough to really know the history and still willing to wrestle the beast? I saw more dangerous BS in the military-security part of my career than I ever did on the industrial or medical manufacturing side. The lumps they swept under the rug would make for a good mountain-bike course is the way I used to put it. The domestic side of that is almost hilarious. The DHS-funded 911-system in our neck of the woods using tiered Motorola comm-gear was already hacked, with the code online before the system was even rolled-out. And Motorola knew it. So, I'd imagine it was known all the way up the chain of command. Campfire stories at this point.
If you like conspiracy theories, I highly recommend unz.com. Much of what you'll read there are of high quality, sometimes even by relatively famous (washed-up?) names; save reader comments, which are all but uncensored. 🤣. Of course, he's not the only "conspiracy" web site available... One curious point to ponder is why a US-born, Harvard-educated, wealthy Jew hosts a popular web site that (among other topics) hosts many "Holocaust Denial" articles. I've never worked intelligence, but if you wanted a honeypot to collect data on people of a certain ideological persuasion, I cannot think of a better set-up. Of course, given the US's so-called "privacy" laws, one could obtain much of that by simply buying data from ISP or other providers, likely without even breaking any laws. Relevant to this thread, there's plenty about CIA or other government cover-ups. I read him for recreation, they have song since "collected" me, so I have nothing to lose.
No kudos for me there, just a stroke of luck to do menial tasks in support of an amazing team & left to Become a Beltway Bandit so any accidental good karma was more than offset before seeing I had become part of the problem. Doing penance using my dark gifts from the belly of the beast against them now. *smirk*
Agreed, but I take Pamela's meaning as there is no need for deliberate conspiracy, malice a forethought. In any system, even a simple one, various behaviors will emerge. Some are chaotic and unpredictable, some probabilistic but many are predictable, sometimes to a high degree of accuracy. It's all too easy to suspect premeditation, and of course it's possible, but many times what seems like aberrant behavior is simple opportunism. There is a world of difference between me robbing you of your wallet at gunpoint and you dropping $100 on the sidewalk and me scooping it up.
"you do not need vast conspiracies when you have widespread bad incentives. this is WHY incentives matter so much and why letting then be established with near universal reach by people seeking to serve personal and political ends is so dangerous.
there is no recruiting needed for these bad plans. the order emerges from the incentives."
Valuable truth, follow the money, there is no need for conspiracy planning when greed alone delivers predictable results.
true, but various cover-ups, aka "conspiracies", do result, confusing cause and effect.
Eh, to me they seem to be the same self serving motives for misinforming or promoting an agenda. My first boss in Washington had a rule of thumb for confusing or unfounded positions, things where behavior defies common sense and reality. The answer to why someone stood by the untenable was either profound stupidity or personal gain, maybe both.
I guess I'm soft-shoeing around the fact that "conspiracy theory" is such a useful straw-man for avoidance of rational debate, and that so many of those connect-the-dot ideas themselves originate in the bowels of Langley and are spewed by the Mighty Wurlitzer into public opinion for the sole intent of muddying-the-waters and disrupting said rational debate. You didn't think MK-Ultra went away did you? We can hope that personal liability attaches this time around.
"so many of those connect-the-dot ideas themselves originate in the bowels of Langley and are spewed by the Mighty Wurlitzer into public opinion for the sole intent of muddying-the-waters and disrupting said rational debate."
What beautiful phrasing and spot on description!
"You didn't think MK-Ultra went away did you?"
Nope, never have entertained the fantasy and with good reason. My first real boss was Hon Otis Pike who chaired House counterpart to Church Committee. Unlike Church findings that were largely included in the final report, Pike's findings remain largely classified. The notable exception is parts leaked to Village Voice in 1976. Biggest lesson from that is secrets only protect their keepers, genuine NatSec is a rare exception. :~)
Thanks. I was reading The Fifth Estate and Ramparts a few years prior, and then we had quite a slew of books and zines in the 80's retailed at the original Borders Books, dancing around these subjects. Those were heady-days when we thought something beyond sex-drugs-rock 'n roll was possible. Your last bit is interesting; "secrets only protect their keepers..." I've often wondered about the '...genuine NatSec ..." part of the equation. Still do. I imagine the inclination to back-away from the rot is strong. How many of any capacity or agency are old enough to really know the history and still willing to wrestle the beast? I saw more dangerous BS in the military-security part of my career than I ever did on the industrial or medical manufacturing side. The lumps they swept under the rug would make for a good mountain-bike course is the way I used to put it. The domestic side of that is almost hilarious. The DHS-funded 911-system in our neck of the woods using tiered Motorola comm-gear was already hacked, with the code online before the system was even rolled-out. And Motorola knew it. So, I'd imagine it was known all the way up the chain of command. Campfire stories at this point.
If you like conspiracy theories, I highly recommend unz.com. Much of what you'll read there are of high quality, sometimes even by relatively famous (washed-up?) names; save reader comments, which are all but uncensored. 🤣. Of course, he's not the only "conspiracy" web site available... One curious point to ponder is why a US-born, Harvard-educated, wealthy Jew hosts a popular web site that (among other topics) hosts many "Holocaust Denial" articles. I've never worked intelligence, but if you wanted a honeypot to collect data on people of a certain ideological persuasion, I cannot think of a better set-up. Of course, given the US's so-called "privacy" laws, one could obtain much of that by simply buying data from ISP or other providers, likely without even breaking any laws. Relevant to this thread, there's plenty about CIA or other government cover-ups. I read him for recreation, they have song since "collected" me, so I have nothing to lose.
Kudos for your involvement and work on that, btw.
No kudos for me there, just a stroke of luck to do menial tasks in support of an amazing team & left to Become a Beltway Bandit so any accidental good karma was more than offset before seeing I had become part of the problem. Doing penance using my dark gifts from the belly of the beast against them now. *smirk*
Agreed, but I take Pamela's meaning as there is no need for deliberate conspiracy, malice a forethought. In any system, even a simple one, various behaviors will emerge. Some are chaotic and unpredictable, some probabilistic but many are predictable, sometimes to a high degree of accuracy. It's all too easy to suspect premeditation, and of course it's possible, but many times what seems like aberrant behavior is simple opportunism. There is a world of difference between me robbing you of your wallet at gunpoint and you dropping $100 on the sidewalk and me scooping it up.
Same spam here and RTE thread both as replies to me & my same reply. Compressed links w cheap lure in hacker terms ->> malware honeypot.