I don't remember exactly which claim was made where so I won't attempt to make it up now. I have provided some examples of his manipulations in another sub-thread.
Oh come on Jared, please just one little itty bitty fact to back up your claim? Otherwise I have to put you down as some kind of butt-hurt shill who wants to stick a needle in his back from the shadows. Now itтАЩs done! Bombs away again!
He did use the 65 million number which was an estimate from one source. Others have it between 30-35 so he used high end estimates. Not saying 65 million didn't die but anyone claiming accuracy across a 3 decade period which included a devastating world war is just plain wrong.
Just be aware that all sources have sources that we need to verify. Believe nothing from noone. Paranoia is a good thing :)
ThereтАЩs a lot of disinformation about Solzhenitsyn floating around out there (KGB, anyone?). HeтАЩs imperfect, certainly, like everyone else, but few individuals in history have articulated more potent lessons regarding the hazards of totalitarianism than Solzhenitsyn. IтАЩve heard some claim he said there were 66 million in the gulags, but anyone who reads тАЬThe Gulag ArchipelagoтАЭ will encounter the following on p. iv of Volume 1:
тАЬHow many there actually were in the Archipelago one cannot know for certain. We can assume that at any one time there were not more than twelve million in the camps[1],тАЭ with the footnote reading, тАЬAccording to the researches of the Social Democrats Nicolaevsky and Dallin, there were from fifteen to twenty million prisoners in the camps.тАЭ
I donтАЩt have time to debunk all the Solzhenitsyn debunkers, but that is but one example easily disproven by the text itself.
Nice! As if it is about the number of millions instead of the actual issue of organized genocide anyway.
One story about Solzhenitsyn I found very moving was his description of being called for interrogation after he was a renowned author living comfortably in his house when he was fighting the system. He did not know, when they came to his house, if he would be coming back. His whole life could very well be forfeit. So, with only a moment to prepare to possibly go back to the gulag, he picks up a bar of soap in his bathroom, figuring that he will at least have the small luxury of a bar of soap for a few days after he is back in a camp. That really blew my mind, resolutely going from a millionaire to someone whose wealth is now a piece of soap in one minuteтАЩs time because you are standing for the truth.
I want to read his banned book, тАЬTwo Hundred Years TogetherтАЭ which I hear is about the Jews in Russia. It must be really good! Also, I want to see the movie тАЬThe Greatest Story Never Told.тАЭ I just love censorship! It shows you right where the juicy stuff is!
I started reading the introduction, and seeing errors like тАЬNobel Price winningтАЭ doesnтАЩt give me the greatest confidence in the quality of the translation ;-) I donтАЩt know much about SolzhenitsynтАЩs supposed anti-semitic beliefs and will neither defend nor accuse him without having an opportunity to delve into his writings on that topic, which honestly I have to back-burner because IтАЩm harnessing all of my time, effort, and energy to focus on arresting the global democide and Great Totalitarian Reset ;-)
I fully acknowledge that people who have written works I respect and appreciate likely held beliefs I disagree with, especially given their historical context, and it is myopic to attempt to retroactively apply contemporary values to earlier times (especially wokified contortions). Being half-Jewish myself, I wouldnтАЩt automatically dismiss everything else someone has written because they have posited anti-semitic stances. I try to examine their words in context and understand great thinkers are also human and susceptible to cultural influences, prejudices, and cognitive biases like everyone else.
I too would like to delve into his writings, but somebody is seeing fit to censor them to prevent that, arenтАЩt they? I see a clue already! I see a parallel alsoтАжтАЭanti-vaxxerтАЭ/тАЬholocaust-denierтАЭтАФ-two boogeyman terms all well-conditioned people are studiously trying to avoid getting tagged with. CanтАЩt discuss it. Too scary. Too loaded. What about the Holdomor. Few people know what is was. How many movies about it? How many movies about the holocaust? Why so many about one and you donтАЩt hear boo about the other? Is this a clue?
And yes, HollywoodтАЩs obsession with the Third Reich as a special sort of evil to the exclusion of all other genocidal regimes is oddly convenient for the Red side of the equation тАж
Regarding Holdomor, I just quoted SolzhenistynтАЩs chapter (тАЬThe Peasant Plague,тАЭ тАЬThe Gulag Archipelago,тАЭ Chapter 2 of vol. 3) on that in a recent comment somewhere:
тАЬThis chapter will deal with a small matter. Fifteen million souls. Fifteen million lives.тАж
тАЬBut about the silent, treacherous Plague which starved fifteen million of our peasants to death, choosing its victims carefully and destroying the backbone and mainstay of the Russian peopleтАФabout that Plague there are no books. No bugles bid our hearts beat faster for them. Not even the traditional three stones mark the crossroads where they went in creaking carts to their doom. Our finest humanists, so sensitive to todayтАЩs injustices, in those years only nodded approvingly: Quite right, too! Just what they deserve!
тАЬIt was all kept so dark, every stain so carefully scratched out, every whisper so swiftly choked, that whereas I now have to refuse kind offers of material on the campsтАФтАШNo more, my friends, I have masses of such stories, I donтАЩt know where to put them!тАЩтАФnobody brings me a thing about the deported peasants. Who is the person that could tell us about them? Where is he? тАж
тАЬThe plan, however, remained in their heads, and all through the twenties they bullied and prodded and taunted: тАШKulak! Kulak! Kulak!тАЩ The thought that it was impossible to live in the same world as the kulak was gradually built up in the minds of townspeople.
тАЬThe devastating peasant Plague began, as far as we can judge, in 1929тАФthe compilation of murder lists, the confiscations, the deportations. But only at the beginning of 1930 (after rehearsals were complete, and necessary adjustments made) was the public allowed to learn what was happeningтАФin the decision of the Central Committee of the Party dated January 5. (The Party is тАШjustified in shifting from a policy of restricting the exploiting tendencies of the kulaks to a policy of liquidating the kulaks as a class.тАЩ And the admission of kulaks to the kolkhoz was immediately тАж prohibited. Would anyone like to attempt a coherent explanation?)
тАЬThe dutifully concurring Central Executive Committee of the Soviets and the Council of PeopleтАЩs Commissars were not far behind the Central Committee, and on February 1, 1930, they gave legislative form to the will of the Party. Provincial Executive Committees were required to тАШuse all necessary methods in the struggle with the kulaks, up to and including [in reality no other method was used] complete confiscation of the property of kulaks and their removal to points beyond the boundaries of certain regions and provinces.тАЩтАЭ
Debunking Solzhenitsyn debunkers while quoting Solzhenitsyn? (CIA anyone?) In USSR life was so bad that the only two times drop in population was recorded - during Civil War and Second World War. While during USSR population grew, after its collapse population is consistently declining. People tend to have less kids when life sucks, obviously it wasn't the case during USSR times, but for some reason in "free" Russia population is shrinking. Do you imply that commissars forced Soviet citizens to reproduce at the barrel of a gun?
Okay, Jared, I see you are having difficulty following logic, so IтАЩll try to make this simple for you. The Solzhenitsyn debunkers were claiming he said 66 million were in the gulags, so I simply quoted him directly to demonstrate he himself said тАЬone cannot know for certainтАЭ and тАЬthere were not more than twelve million in the camps.тАЭ
You are using high population/reproduction rates as an indicator that a populace is not oppressed? Seriously? I take it you are an avid fan of the great and wondrously free republic of China, then?
You set up a straw man argument and then claim it is evidence for your faulty premise. Please.
Have you lived in Russia/the USSR yourself, or are you just fabricating conclusions based on KGB propaganda and your own ideological fantasies? Because I suggest you talk to someone whose family actually grew up under and suffered the tyrannical brutality behind the Iron CurtainтАФTessa Fights Robots (https://tessa.substack.com/p/totalitarianism), for example.
IтАЩm sorry I donтАЩt have the time to engage with you on this further but hope you will open your mind and stop serving as an apologist for a regime responsible for massacring, imprisoning, torturing, and terrorizing millions of human beings for decades upon decades.
Yes, I grew up and lived in USSR and I know a lot of stories of real people. I haven't heard a single story of oppression in my family. And none have been members of the communist party. So I call bs on what Solzhenitsyn wrote. The only story where I've heard that person complained of oppression was a gang member who murdered people. He was a grandfather of one my friends. So don't lecture me about how it was in USSR.
Thanks for clarifying that you lived in the USSR. Just because you didnтАЩt personally witness the oppression doesnтАЩt mean it wasnтАЩt happening, howeverтАФjust like ordinary Germans didnтАЩt believe the Jews were being gassed, or Covidians donтАЩt believe thousands of people are dying and millions have been injured by the injections. The likelihood that you were immersed in Soviet propaganda painting an alternative reality for you to inhabit makes the parallels to whatтАЩs occurring now even stronger. Just like now, those who comply with autocracy can go about their lives thinking everything is peachy, whereas those who dissent suffer the brunt of the brutality in the shadowy corners of the regime, which everyday people donтАЩt see, hear, or think about because it doesnтАЩt affect them directly.
IтАЩm way past my bedtime so am saying farewell for now but would be interested to see what others who grew up under the Soviet government and personally experienced the oppression would say in response to your statements.
Have you considered possibility that you have been immersed in anti Soviet propaganda? Entertain this thought. I was able to free myself from anti American propaganda, though I see where it is coming from. I am tired of people who judge how life was by the news, fake celebrities and academics who write books being afraid to step out of line or to get social approval. Yes, life in Soviet Union wasn't perfect, but is it in America? Soviet Union collapsed because people got too comfortable with their lives. Same thing, in my opinion, is happening in America nowadays. A lot of Americans don't know (or realize) hardships that previous generations went through and are now spitting on their graves. That's how it was in USSR before collapse. I don't know what will be USA's fate, but I share deeply it's values of freedom. They do not work exactly like they are advertised, but at least that's an ideal for which people can strive for and many countries should take example from them. I won't be silent though when people are spitting on the country I was born in. It wasn't perfect, but I see a lot of outrageous lies which aren't supported a) by my experience, b) by statistics, c) by historical documents.
Actually there are claims that Soviet system killed 110 million, it's hard to find proper source in English, but here is one of the links - https://cisindus.org/2021/02/22/is-the-west-living-in-denial-a-warning-to-the-west-3/. Now compare this against USSR population and do the math. Solzhenisyn used this number as well, saying about "110 mln of our best sons" or something like this. All Russian Empire was around 125 mln according to census of 1897. Even 30 mln looks outlandish in these conditions. Given that a lot of blood was spilled during Civil War and Second World War how is even low estimate even possible?
Another way to verify these numbers are censuses. Soviet population grew rapidly, how do you explain that during genocide? Anyway one believes what one wants to believe. Part of my family is from the Soviet block and even though some have been sceptical of the government and thought negatively about it no one was imprisoned or saw death. Except for one distant member who killed a person during gang initiation. So I call bs on genocide story. It's just a cold war propaganda. It's the same as calling USA a country of systemic racism which it is not. It doesn't prevent tens and tens of millions of people in USA believe it. If you can see through propaganda in one case but not another means you can't really get rid of your biases.
I think it may have been in the movie F IS FOR FAKE I saw an interview with a great art forger. He LOVED duping experts.
But donтАЩt worry about my sources, I get all my facts from Snopes. When it comes to media, as long as I have a kosher intermediary delivering the reports, I know I am тАЬstaying safe.тАЭ
Snopes and Main Stream Media? Impecible I say. Completely unbiased and 100% accurate all the time. /sarc
Dr Zelenko has some choice words for those "kosher intermediary" media types. Has relatives in Israel and their media/internet control make China jealous apparently.
If you are genuinely interested dig into subject, read conflicting opinions, apply logic. I am not defending bloodshed that happened in Russia during Civil War and years after that that have been caused by animosity in Russian society. However putting a novelist on pedestal and blindly trusting what he wrote without asking questions is weird unless you support the conclusions regardless of facts. What is special about him that he got such great PR in the West? He was just a literator, not a scientist. He took some number out of a magic hat and presented it as fact. A lot of Russian historians who could go and look into actual documents in the archives proved him to be a liar. For majority of Russian people he is a traitor who spread lies about their country. Some Russian people support him. But hey, some Russian people regret that Hitler hasn't won.
Solzhenitzyn was talented novelist and literator, he got into prison system because as soldier he was writing remarks about replacing government. Imagine a soldier that does that during war time. His millions upon millions of dead by Soviet regime myth was debunked by historians who actually took a deep dive into this issue using historical documents. How come this particular guy is so propped up in the West? He wrote the most outrageous lies and was a good prop for anti Russian propaganda at the time. How come the world knows him so much and not other dissidents of more worthy stature, like Sakharov?
"His millions upon millions of dead by Soviet regime myth was debunked by historians who actually took a deep dive into this issue using historical documents."
You are a fabulist and apologist for genocide.
The horrors perpetrated by the Soviets are well documented:
I guess the skull with the bullet hole between the eyes held by the researcher is "unsubstantiated" too, right?
тАЬThis happens all over the country, itтАЩs impossible to say how often,тАЭ Felige said. тАЬAll we can to (sic) is put up monuments to remember the dead.тАЭ
When you started insulting you just proved that you have no reasonable arguments and instead of retreating (realising the stupid argument you made) resorted to personal attacks.
Aw this Jared Wilkins fellow takes me back to the Usenet days! There were lots of Soviet atrocity deniers on the net in the 90s. There was also a great camp of "Shostakovich revisionists" who believed Shostakovich was a happy patriot who loved his country. Haven't seen any of those folks crawl out from under a rock in a while, I figure they are all not in the flat earth society of eomthing.
We are not talking about Shostakovich but completely another person who was discredited by scientific community, but it didn't make it popular culture. Usually ones talking about Soviet atrocities are Nazi apologists, so there is that.
I will only reply to such arrogance once. What was researched by historians who studied historical documents is that total number of active prisoners in Soviet system claimed by Solzhenitzyn was more or less equal to total numbers of prisoners that went through the system. This is blatant manipulation which is insult to the logic. One can also compare total numbers of dead by Soviet system claimed by Solzhenitzyn with total number of citizens. Claims by Solzhenitzyn are impossible. Still some believe these lies, like many today believe that 99% of people dying from covid are unvaccinated. When working with statistics it's imperative to use a brain in order not to mix up the contexts. All his outrageous claims have been a good fit for anti Russian propaganda though.
What numbers are you talking about, dimwit? Did Solzhenitsyn make any claims about numbers? How about you point to a passage in his works in which he talked about actual numbers? Then we can talk about the actually Russian atrocities. Which, from the last count, were considerably worse than the Nazis.
I read it as an innocent man in prison in a foreign country while the State was dismissing my exonerating evidence and trying to railroad me into a 30 year sentence. I found the book riveting. I guess maybe you had to be thereтАж
Try reading it againтАФor listening to the audiobook if thatтАЩs easier. I guarantee you will see it with different eyes now that what he described is unfolding before our eyes in technicolor. His biting humor, countless firsthand accounts, and exceptional literary skill make his lessons from the gulags all the more captivating. It is a must-read for anyone who wishes to understand and resist tyranny.
It might be different now, as I would read it free will, contrast to the must from school, I would have time, then I only had a week to read that heavy book, and I am way older which causes your perception to shift. Thanks for the tip, I might just do that !
A week?! Goodness gracious, thatтАЩs not an assignment, thatтАЩs a recipe for sleep deprivation and incomprehension. Definitely worth revisiting at your own languid pace!
INdeed ! I had to read it way into the night. We had only a few books available. Hardly anyone wanted to buy it, new and expensive. So we circulated them.
I find it interesting that in the 90s in the post Soviet countries there has been a lot of propaganda how Soviet Union was bad and how Nazis are so mysterious and enigmatic. It was more popular to become skin head and slap a swastika tattoo than defend Soviet past among younger generation. Sure there have been bad things, but all countries have dark in their past.
That may or may not be true, but his quotes on his dedicated Twitter feed offer fascinating observations that are eerily similar to what we're observing in real time.
He was a talented novelist, it's hard to deny that. Coincidentally his remarks are spot on for certain issues today. He also had bad opinion of the Jews. So one can be talented on one area, but it doesn't make them worthy of praise in general.
Fair enough. I don't think it's coincidental at all. We're seeing an atheistic collectivist uprising in the same spirit as a communist revolution. Same psychological forces rooted in ideology (collectivism). The timing is always a surprise, but the progression should not be. The big question is how do you stop it. Gato's been leading that charge, because I have no idea.
From my perspective it's more comparable to what Nazis did, than communists. Nazis have been widely known as book burners, human experimenters and generally bad people. Soviet Russia was bloody but it can't even remotely compete with what Nazis did. Japanese are also worthy mentioning with their 731 unit, purposefully infecting people with deceasing and watching how they suffer and die. That's what big pharma is doing today.
I agree. My contention is there's an underlying ideological and psychological common thread to communism, fascism and what we're currently witnessing. To try to make sense of this, I've had to significantly adjust my perspective of the power of ideology in the human spirit. I think history supports it.
Solzhenitzyn, a fame seeking literator who made up facts. Choose your models wisely.
You mean like 200 Years Together or what?
I don't remember exactly which claim was made where so I won't attempt to make it up now. I have provided some examples of his manipulations in another sub-thread.
Oh come on Jared, please just one little itty bitty fact to back up your claim? Otherwise I have to put you down as some kind of butt-hurt shill who wants to stick a needle in his back from the shadows. Now itтАЩs done! Bombs away again!
He did use the 65 million number which was an estimate from one source. Others have it between 30-35 so he used high end estimates. Not saying 65 million didn't die but anyone claiming accuracy across a 3 decade period which included a devastating world war is just plain wrong.
Just be aware that all sources have sources that we need to verify. Believe nothing from noone. Paranoia is a good thing :)
ThereтАЩs a lot of disinformation about Solzhenitsyn floating around out there (KGB, anyone?). HeтАЩs imperfect, certainly, like everyone else, but few individuals in history have articulated more potent lessons regarding the hazards of totalitarianism than Solzhenitsyn. IтАЩve heard some claim he said there were 66 million in the gulags, but anyone who reads тАЬThe Gulag ArchipelagoтАЭ will encounter the following on p. iv of Volume 1:
тАЬHow many there actually were in the Archipelago one cannot know for certain. We can assume that at any one time there were not more than twelve million in the camps[1],тАЭ with the footnote reading, тАЬAccording to the researches of the Social Democrats Nicolaevsky and Dallin, there were from fifteen to twenty million prisoners in the camps.тАЭ
I donтАЩt have time to debunk all the Solzhenitsyn debunkers, but that is but one example easily disproven by the text itself.
Nice! As if it is about the number of millions instead of the actual issue of organized genocide anyway.
One story about Solzhenitsyn I found very moving was his description of being called for interrogation after he was a renowned author living comfortably in his house when he was fighting the system. He did not know, when they came to his house, if he would be coming back. His whole life could very well be forfeit. So, with only a moment to prepare to possibly go back to the gulag, he picks up a bar of soap in his bathroom, figuring that he will at least have the small luxury of a bar of soap for a few days after he is back in a camp. That really blew my mind, resolutely going from a millionaire to someone whose wealth is now a piece of soap in one minuteтАЩs time because you are standing for the truth.
I want to read his banned book, тАЬTwo Hundred Years TogetherтАЭ which I hear is about the Jews in Russia. It must be really good! Also, I want to see the movie тАЬThe Greatest Story Never Told.тАЭ I just love censorship! It shows you right where the juicy stuff is!
A self-admitted Holocaust denier recommended тАЬ200 Years TogetherтАЭ in the comments of my last post (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/letter-to-an-agree-to-disagree-relative/). I didnтАЩt know anything about the content but found it at archive.org: https://ia803108.us.archive.org/2/items/200YearsTogether/200%20Years%20Together.pdf
I started reading the introduction, and seeing errors like тАЬNobel Price winningтАЭ doesnтАЩt give me the greatest confidence in the quality of the translation ;-) I donтАЩt know much about SolzhenitsynтАЩs supposed anti-semitic beliefs and will neither defend nor accuse him without having an opportunity to delve into his writings on that topic, which honestly I have to back-burner because IтАЩm harnessing all of my time, effort, and energy to focus on arresting the global democide and Great Totalitarian Reset ;-)
I fully acknowledge that people who have written works I respect and appreciate likely held beliefs I disagree with, especially given their historical context, and it is myopic to attempt to retroactively apply contemporary values to earlier times (especially wokified contortions). Being half-Jewish myself, I wouldnтАЩt automatically dismiss everything else someone has written because they have posited anti-semitic stances. I try to examine their words in context and understand great thinkers are also human and susceptible to cultural influences, prejudices, and cognitive biases like everyone else.
I too would like to delve into his writings, but somebody is seeing fit to censor them to prevent that, arenтАЩt they? I see a clue already! I see a parallel alsoтАжтАЭanti-vaxxerтАЭ/тАЬholocaust-denierтАЭтАФ-two boogeyman terms all well-conditioned people are studiously trying to avoid getting tagged with. CanтАЩt discuss it. Too scary. Too loaded. What about the Holdomor. Few people know what is was. How many movies about it? How many movies about the holocaust? Why so many about one and you donтАЩt hear boo about the other? Is this a clue?
Interestingly, I flipped the term around to mean the opposite of what youтАЩre saying in my тАЬLetter to a Holocaust DenierтАЭ (https://margaretannaalice.substack.com/p/letter-to-a-holocaust-denier) to really get under the pro-vaxxersтАЩ skin (or should I say needle them ;-)
And yes, HollywoodтАЩs obsession with the Third Reich as a special sort of evil to the exclusion of all other genocidal regimes is oddly convenient for the Red side of the equation тАж
Regarding Holdomor, I just quoted SolzhenistynтАЩs chapter (тАЬThe Peasant Plague,тАЭ тАЬThe Gulag Archipelago,тАЭ Chapter 2 of vol. 3) on that in a recent comment somewhere:
тАЬThis chapter will deal with a small matter. Fifteen million souls. Fifteen million lives.тАж
тАЬBut about the silent, treacherous Plague which starved fifteen million of our peasants to death, choosing its victims carefully and destroying the backbone and mainstay of the Russian peopleтАФabout that Plague there are no books. No bugles bid our hearts beat faster for them. Not even the traditional three stones mark the crossroads where they went in creaking carts to their doom. Our finest humanists, so sensitive to todayтАЩs injustices, in those years only nodded approvingly: Quite right, too! Just what they deserve!
тАЬIt was all kept so dark, every stain so carefully scratched out, every whisper so swiftly choked, that whereas I now have to refuse kind offers of material on the campsтАФтАШNo more, my friends, I have masses of such stories, I donтАЩt know where to put them!тАЩтАФnobody brings me a thing about the deported peasants. Who is the person that could tell us about them? Where is he? тАж
тАЬThe plan, however, remained in their heads, and all through the twenties they bullied and prodded and taunted: тАШKulak! Kulak! Kulak!тАЩ The thought that it was impossible to live in the same world as the kulak was gradually built up in the minds of townspeople.
тАЬThe devastating peasant Plague began, as far as we can judge, in 1929тАФthe compilation of murder lists, the confiscations, the deportations. But only at the beginning of 1930 (after rehearsals were complete, and necessary adjustments made) was the public allowed to learn what was happeningтАФin the decision of the Central Committee of the Party dated January 5. (The Party is тАШjustified in shifting from a policy of restricting the exploiting tendencies of the kulaks to a policy of liquidating the kulaks as a class.тАЩ And the admission of kulaks to the kolkhoz was immediately тАж prohibited. Would anyone like to attempt a coherent explanation?)
тАЬThe dutifully concurring Central Executive Committee of the Soviets and the Council of PeopleтАЩs Commissars were not far behind the Central Committee, and on February 1, 1930, they gave legislative form to the will of the Party. Provincial Executive Committees were required to тАШuse all necessary methods in the struggle with the kulaks, up to and including [in reality no other method was used] complete confiscation of the property of kulaks and their removal to points beyond the boundaries of certain regions and provinces.тАЩтАЭ
Debunking Solzhenitsyn debunkers while quoting Solzhenitsyn? (CIA anyone?) In USSR life was so bad that the only two times drop in population was recorded - during Civil War and Second World War. While during USSR population grew, after its collapse population is consistently declining. People tend to have less kids when life sucks, obviously it wasn't the case during USSR times, but for some reason in "free" Russia population is shrinking. Do you imply that commissars forced Soviet citizens to reproduce at the barrel of a gun?
Okay, Jared, I see you are having difficulty following logic, so IтАЩll try to make this simple for you. The Solzhenitsyn debunkers were claiming he said 66 million were in the gulags, so I simply quoted him directly to demonstrate he himself said тАЬone cannot know for certainтАЭ and тАЬthere were not more than twelve million in the camps.тАЭ
You are using high population/reproduction rates as an indicator that a populace is not oppressed? Seriously? I take it you are an avid fan of the great and wondrously free republic of China, then?
You set up a straw man argument and then claim it is evidence for your faulty premise. Please.
Have you lived in Russia/the USSR yourself, or are you just fabricating conclusions based on KGB propaganda and your own ideological fantasies? Because I suggest you talk to someone whose family actually grew up under and suffered the tyrannical brutality behind the Iron CurtainтАФTessa Fights Robots (https://tessa.substack.com/p/totalitarianism), for example.
IтАЩm sorry I donтАЩt have the time to engage with you on this further but hope you will open your mind and stop serving as an apologist for a regime responsible for massacring, imprisoning, torturing, and terrorizing millions of human beings for decades upon decades.
Yes, I grew up and lived in USSR and I know a lot of stories of real people. I haven't heard a single story of oppression in my family. And none have been members of the communist party. So I call bs on what Solzhenitsyn wrote. The only story where I've heard that person complained of oppression was a gang member who murdered people. He was a grandfather of one my friends. So don't lecture me about how it was in USSR.
Thanks for clarifying that you lived in the USSR. Just because you didnтАЩt personally witness the oppression doesnтАЩt mean it wasnтАЩt happening, howeverтАФjust like ordinary Germans didnтАЩt believe the Jews were being gassed, or Covidians donтАЩt believe thousands of people are dying and millions have been injured by the injections. The likelihood that you were immersed in Soviet propaganda painting an alternative reality for you to inhabit makes the parallels to whatтАЩs occurring now even stronger. Just like now, those who comply with autocracy can go about their lives thinking everything is peachy, whereas those who dissent suffer the brunt of the brutality in the shadowy corners of the regime, which everyday people donтАЩt see, hear, or think about because it doesnтАЩt affect them directly.
IтАЩm way past my bedtime so am saying farewell for now but would be interested to see what others who grew up under the Soviet government and personally experienced the oppression would say in response to your statements.
Have you considered possibility that you have been immersed in anti Soviet propaganda? Entertain this thought. I was able to free myself from anti American propaganda, though I see where it is coming from. I am tired of people who judge how life was by the news, fake celebrities and academics who write books being afraid to step out of line or to get social approval. Yes, life in Soviet Union wasn't perfect, but is it in America? Soviet Union collapsed because people got too comfortable with their lives. Same thing, in my opinion, is happening in America nowadays. A lot of Americans don't know (or realize) hardships that previous generations went through and are now spitting on their graves. That's how it was in USSR before collapse. I don't know what will be USA's fate, but I share deeply it's values of freedom. They do not work exactly like they are advertised, but at least that's an ideal for which people can strive for and many countries should take example from them. I won't be silent though when people are spitting on the country I was born in. It wasn't perfect, but I see a lot of outrageous lies which aren't supported a) by my experience, b) by statistics, c) by historical documents.
Actually there are claims that Soviet system killed 110 million, it's hard to find proper source in English, but here is one of the links - https://cisindus.org/2021/02/22/is-the-west-living-in-denial-a-warning-to-the-west-3/. Now compare this against USSR population and do the math. Solzhenisyn used this number as well, saying about "110 mln of our best sons" or something like this. All Russian Empire was around 125 mln according to census of 1897. Even 30 mln looks outlandish in these conditions. Given that a lot of blood was spilled during Civil War and Second World War how is even low estimate even possible?
When you are talking 30 million dead being the floor it is very much a genocide no matter which way you look at it. It could be much higher.
Another way to verify these numbers are censuses. Soviet population grew rapidly, how do you explain that during genocide? Anyway one believes what one wants to believe. Part of my family is from the Soviet block and even though some have been sceptical of the government and thought negatively about it no one was imprisoned or saw death. Except for one distant member who killed a person during gang initiation. So I call bs on genocide story. It's just a cold war propaganda. It's the same as calling USA a country of systemic racism which it is not. It doesn't prevent tens and tens of millions of people in USA believe it. If you can see through propaganda in one case but not another means you can't really get rid of your biases.
I think it may have been in the movie F IS FOR FAKE I saw an interview with a great art forger. He LOVED duping experts.
But donтАЩt worry about my sources, I get all my facts from Snopes. When it comes to media, as long as I have a kosher intermediary delivering the reports, I know I am тАЬstaying safe.тАЭ
Snopes and Main Stream Media? Impecible I say. Completely unbiased and 100% accurate all the time. /sarc
Dr Zelenko has some choice words for those "kosher intermediary" media types. Has relatives in Israel and their media/internet control make China jealous apparently.
Stop. Starts to get ego-driven.
If you are genuinely interested dig into subject, read conflicting opinions, apply logic. I am not defending bloodshed that happened in Russia during Civil War and years after that that have been caused by animosity in Russian society. However putting a novelist on pedestal and blindly trusting what he wrote without asking questions is weird unless you support the conclusions regardless of facts. What is special about him that he got such great PR in the West? He was just a literator, not a scientist. He took some number out of a magic hat and presented it as fact. A lot of Russian historians who could go and look into actual documents in the archives proved him to be a liar. For majority of Russian people he is a traitor who spread lies about their country. Some Russian people support him. But hey, some Russian people regret that Hitler hasn't won.
Excuse me..? Care to elaborate?
Solzhenitzyn was talented novelist and literator, he got into prison system because as soldier he was writing remarks about replacing government. Imagine a soldier that does that during war time. His millions upon millions of dead by Soviet regime myth was debunked by historians who actually took a deep dive into this issue using historical documents. How come this particular guy is so propped up in the West? He wrote the most outrageous lies and was a good prop for anti Russian propaganda at the time. How come the world knows him so much and not other dissidents of more worthy stature, like Sakharov?
"His millions upon millions of dead by Soviet regime myth was debunked by historians who actually took a deep dive into this issue using historical documents."
You are a fabulist and apologist for genocide.
The horrors perpetrated by the Soviets are well documented:
- The Black Book of Communism, Courtois et. al., Harvard University Press 1999. https://smile.amazon.com/Black-Book-Communism-Crimes-Repression/dp/0674076087/
- Death by Government, Rummel. Transaction Publishers, 1998. https://smile.amazon.com/Death-Government-Genocide-Murder-Since/dp/1560009276
- The Bykivnia Graves in Ukraine alone contain the remains of an estimated 100K victims. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bykivnia_graves
- Mass graves are commonly found in the Russian Far East. https://smile.amazon.com/Death-Government-Genocide-Murder-Since/dp/1560009276. There are stories of river erosion exposing them resulting in thousands of bodies floating past riverside towns.
Shame on you.
Wrong Far East link...
https://sputniknews.com/20100412/158537934.html
article makes unsubstantiated claims, was this mass grave looked into? bones analyzed? any conclusions reached? end of the article suggests its bias
Right.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-grave-idUSTRE6584HJ20100609
I guess the skull with the bullet hole between the eyes held by the researcher is "unsubstantiated" too, right?
тАЬThis happens all over the country, itтАЩs impossible to say how often,тАЭ Felige said. тАЬAll we can to (sic) is put up monuments to remember the dead.тАЭ
What the hell is wrong with you?
Reuters for source? You indeed have poo instead of a brain.
It is proven that Soviets did kill many many people of their own. That is common knowledge in Europe.
You have already made your mind, what's the point of discussion? I don't have access to these books and quoting Wikipedia as source is laughable.
Blah blah blah.
You have not presented a single fact or source for anything you've asserted. That is the unmistakable mark of bullshit.
You don't have access to "these books"? Really? Do you live in one of the last remaining commie shitholes then?
If so, you best be careful what you say on the net, or you may find yourself in one of those mass graves you don't think exist.
Idiot.
When you started insulting you just proved that you have no reasonable arguments and instead of retreating (realising the stupid argument you made) resorted to personal attacks.
What, exactly, did he lie about, jackass?
Aw this Jared Wilkins fellow takes me back to the Usenet days! There were lots of Soviet atrocity deniers on the net in the 90s. There was also a great camp of "Shostakovich revisionists" who believed Shostakovich was a happy patriot who loved his country. Haven't seen any of those folks crawl out from under a rock in a while, I figure they are all not in the flat earth society of eomthing.
We are not talking about Shostakovich but completely another person who was discredited by scientific community, but it didn't make it popular culture. Usually ones talking about Soviet atrocities are Nazi apologists, so there is that.
I will only reply to such arrogance once. What was researched by historians who studied historical documents is that total number of active prisoners in Soviet system claimed by Solzhenitzyn was more or less equal to total numbers of prisoners that went through the system. This is blatant manipulation which is insult to the logic. One can also compare total numbers of dead by Soviet system claimed by Solzhenitzyn with total number of citizens. Claims by Solzhenitzyn are impossible. Still some believe these lies, like many today believe that 99% of people dying from covid are unvaccinated. When working with statistics it's imperative to use a brain in order not to mix up the contexts. All his outrageous claims have been a good fit for anti Russian propaganda though.
Once?
You haven't actually replied at all, just made one unsubstantiated assertion after another.
You are the personification of why leftists are the laughing stock of thinking people everywhere.
I have already put more effort into this discussion than you. There is no point in throwing pearls before swine.
What numbers are you talking about, dimwit? Did Solzhenitsyn make any claims about numbers? How about you point to a passage in his works in which he talked about actual numbers? Then we can talk about the actually Russian atrocities. Which, from the last count, were considerably worse than the Nazis.
that what Nazi apologist would say. Have Soviets conducted human experiments (Mengele like) and put people in the ovens?
Paging Mike Godwin...
What a piece of work you are.
I read part of his Gulag archipelago and found it extremely boring. We had to read it for school.
I read it as an innocent man in prison in a foreign country while the State was dismissing my exonerating evidence and trying to railroad me into a 30 year sentence. I found the book riveting. I guess maybe you had to be thereтАж
When you had to be there when Frodo had to let go of the ring. Oh wait, it's just a literary work.
Wow, there is a considered and important opinion. Thanks for contributing.
Try reading it againтАФor listening to the audiobook if thatтАЩs easier. I guarantee you will see it with different eyes now that what he described is unfolding before our eyes in technicolor. His biting humor, countless firsthand accounts, and exceptional literary skill make his lessons from the gulags all the more captivating. It is a must-read for anyone who wishes to understand and resist tyranny.
It might be different now, as I would read it free will, contrast to the must from school, I would have time, then I only had a week to read that heavy book, and I am way older which causes your perception to shift. Thanks for the tip, I might just do that !
A week?! Goodness gracious, thatтАЩs not an assignment, thatтАЩs a recipe for sleep deprivation and incomprehension. Definitely worth revisiting at your own languid pace!
INdeed ! I had to read it way into the night. We had only a few books available. Hardly anyone wanted to buy it, new and expensive. So we circulated them.
I find it interesting that in the 90s in the post Soviet countries there has been a lot of propaganda how Soviet Union was bad and how Nazis are so mysterious and enigmatic. It was more popular to become skin head and slap a swastika tattoo than defend Soviet past among younger generation. Sure there have been bad things, but all countries have dark in their past.
That may or may not be true, but his quotes on his dedicated Twitter feed offer fascinating observations that are eerily similar to what we're observing in real time.
He was a talented novelist, it's hard to deny that. Coincidentally his remarks are spot on for certain issues today. He also had bad opinion of the Jews. So one can be talented on one area, but it doesn't make them worthy of praise in general.
Fair enough. I don't think it's coincidental at all. We're seeing an atheistic collectivist uprising in the same spirit as a communist revolution. Same psychological forces rooted in ideology (collectivism). The timing is always a surprise, but the progression should not be. The big question is how do you stop it. Gato's been leading that charge, because I have no idea.
From my perspective it's more comparable to what Nazis did, than communists. Nazis have been widely known as book burners, human experimenters and generally bad people. Soviet Russia was bloody but it can't even remotely compete with what Nazis did. Japanese are also worthy mentioning with their 731 unit, purposefully infecting people with deceasing and watching how they suffer and die. That's what big pharma is doing today.
I agree. My contention is there's an underlying ideological and psychological common thread to communism, fascism and what we're currently witnessing. To try to make sense of this, I've had to significantly adjust my perspective of the power of ideology in the human spirit. I think history supports it.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
The rock of my salvation.