Empathy fail on your part there, gato. Shame on you. Yes, you have a bit of a point about the virtue of toughness, and there certainly doesn't need to be any government commissioner against fat shaming, but your excuses for schoolyard bullying are not only cruel but fundamentally illiberal in the classical sense. The main cause of bullyi…
Empathy fail on your part there, gato. Shame on you. Yes, you have a bit of a point about the virtue of toughness, and there certainly doesn't need to be any government commissioner against fat shaming, but your excuses for schoolyard bullying are not only cruel but fundamentally illiberal in the classical sense. The main cause of bullying at school is the harshly authoritarian nature of school. Luckily for us libertarians, the policies that really work to prevent persistent bullying are the very same policies that let kids have an early start with personal liberty. The youth rights/child lib movement may lean leftward demographically, but I see no reason philosophically why this should be so.
Won’t argue that. I hold that bullying is at its core an issue of personal responsibility. Bullies need to be larned the lesson. We could do this the easy way, or the hard way.
Schools do not cause bullying, bullies cause bullying. That is a fact of personal responsibility that cannot be transferred to an institution. This article is a perfect example of enabling crying to be an emergency, the subject of EGM post, in the form of glorified mob rule and tyranny.
It's the environment. Disease of any sort loves a toxic environment. Schools - and social media - combined - are toxic environments in which the Bully Disease thrives.
Is there mob rule and tyranny at the Sudbury Valley School or its many imitators? No, there isn't. Instead, there is liberal democracy and the rule of law. Mr. gato has a bit of a point on the virtue of toughness, but there is also virtue in compassion, the baby you're throwing out with the bathwater.
Yes there is. It is very far beyond a reasonable process. Simple, clear, written rules and policies suffice for discipline. The Sudbury “process” unnecessarily enables arbitrary, subjective control based on tyranny of a majority a.k.a. ganging up. Banning from class for a week because person A didn’t like something person B did and got a few people to agree. Extra-judicial and arbitrary. The so-called supreme court style discussions are the giveaway that novices have strayed out of bounds. Recall, democracy is not a good thing as our Founding Fathers understood. I’m so happy my kids didn’t attend a horror show like that.
Meanwhile, in a typically authoritarian school, kids are sent to the principal's office to be punished without due process. And according to you, that's not the horror show. Wow.
I was one who got punished for being in the wrong place, wrong time. I was not with the offending students (age 10?) but was punished with them. However - I lived. My crying was not an emergency.
You lived, JC, but apparently with a kind of Stockholm syndrome that keeps you from acknowledging the political implications of what happened to you. Bite the bullet, man. Admit how outrageous it was.
If only EVERYONE did this ONE thing, the world would be perfect.
Denial of human nature as it exists. Let me know how that works out for you. We've seen what other postmodern nutty ideas have done to society already.
Psychology Today just happens to have the data to support my argument. Are you willing to give the data a look, so you can either change your mind or try to change mine?
Thanks for making my point for me. Prisons, jails, and orphanages all demonstrate my point that persistent bullying is caused or prevented at the institutional level. "Bullying occurs regularly", explains the psychologist Peter Gray, "when people who have no political power and are ruled in top-down fashion by others are required by law or economic necessity to remain in that setting."
Personal experience informs my opinion. I've been to all three places in my 78 years. Authority can remove a bully from a population of potential victims but all that happens is the second bully in line steps up. What stops a bully is a victim stepping up and clocking the bully, consequences be damned. Generally the consequences are delivered by the authority in charge. Ask me how I know.
It seems your knowledge comes from an education superior to mine. Good on ya. You wantm to know how it really works get down in the mud and rassle with the hogs.
Again, your lived experience in those places only helps demonstrate Peter Gray's point and my point about what happens in those places. I don't claim to have had "an education superior to yours"—I got plenty of bullying in government schools—but unlike you, I don't let despair keep me from acknowledging the success of the Sudbury experiment.
Empathy fail on your part there, gato. Shame on you. Yes, you have a bit of a point about the virtue of toughness, and there certainly doesn't need to be any government commissioner against fat shaming, but your excuses for schoolyard bullying are not only cruel but fundamentally illiberal in the classical sense. The main cause of bullying at school is the harshly authoritarian nature of school. Luckily for us libertarians, the policies that really work to prevent persistent bullying are the very same policies that let kids have an early start with personal liberty. The youth rights/child lib movement may lean leftward demographically, but I see no reason philosophically why this should be so.
“ The main cause of bullying at school is the harshly authoritarian nature of school.”
Uh, no.
Bullying’s main caus is bullies: enabled assholes who take their angst out on weaker kids.
Shitty parenting, which gets shittier every year.
Won’t argue that. I hold that bullying is at its core an issue of personal responsibility. Bullies need to be larned the lesson. We could do this the easy way, or the hard way.
I must correct your factual error. Persistent bullying is indeed preventable at the institutional level: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/freedom-to-learn/201006/freedom-from-bullying-how-a-school-can-be-a-moral-community
Schools do not cause bullying, bullies cause bullying. That is a fact of personal responsibility that cannot be transferred to an institution. This article is a perfect example of enabling crying to be an emergency, the subject of EGM post, in the form of glorified mob rule and tyranny.
It's the environment. Disease of any sort loves a toxic environment. Schools - and social media - combined - are toxic environments in which the Bully Disease thrives.
A healthy biome ejects the bully.
True enough, yet we cannot release bullies from personal responsibilty.
Is there mob rule and tyranny at the Sudbury Valley School or its many imitators? No, there isn't. Instead, there is liberal democracy and the rule of law. Mr. gato has a bit of a point on the virtue of toughness, but there is also virtue in compassion, the baby you're throwing out with the bathwater.
Yes there is. It is very far beyond a reasonable process. Simple, clear, written rules and policies suffice for discipline. The Sudbury “process” unnecessarily enables arbitrary, subjective control based on tyranny of a majority a.k.a. ganging up. Banning from class for a week because person A didn’t like something person B did and got a few people to agree. Extra-judicial and arbitrary. The so-called supreme court style discussions are the giveaway that novices have strayed out of bounds. Recall, democracy is not a good thing as our Founding Fathers understood. I’m so happy my kids didn’t attend a horror show like that.
Meanwhile, in a typically authoritarian school, kids are sent to the principal's office to be punished without due process. And according to you, that's not the horror show. Wow.
Break the clear rules, get sent to the Principal’s office. Simple and straightforward. Your crying is not an emergency.
I was one who got punished for being in the wrong place, wrong time. I was not with the offending students (age 10?) but was punished with them. However - I lived. My crying was not an emergency.
You lived, JC, but apparently with a kind of Stockholm syndrome that keeps you from acknowledging the political implications of what happened to you. Bite the bullet, man. Admit how outrageous it was.
So, according to you [la chevalerie vit], all that stuff about being presumed innocent until proven guilty is for crybabies?
Take your strawman elsewhere. Goodbye.
Bullying has been around since humans graced the earth. It's a rite of passage. It sucks, but it teaches kids a lot.
If persistent bullying can be prevented at the institutional level—which indeed it can—then there is absolutely no excuse for not preventing it. And the good news for us freedom lovers is that, to make a long story short, freedom is what prevents persistent bullying: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/freedom-to-learn/201006/freedom-from-bullying-how-a-school-can-be-a-moral-community
More utopian b.s.
If only EVERYONE did this ONE thing, the world would be perfect.
Denial of human nature as it exists. Let me know how that works out for you. We've seen what other postmodern nutty ideas have done to society already.
I'm not the denier of reality here; you are. Free, democratic schools such as the Sudbury Valley School have been empirically proving my point for decades, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not. Here's that link again: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/freedom-to-learn/201006/freedom-from-bullying-how-a-school-can-be-a-moral-community
Do you work for Psychology Today? You are ridiculous.
Psychology Today just happens to have the data to support my argument. Are you willing to give the data a look, so you can either change your mind or try to change mine?
Never been to prison, jail, or an orphanage eh?
Thanks for making my point for me. Prisons, jails, and orphanages all demonstrate my point that persistent bullying is caused or prevented at the institutional level. "Bullying occurs regularly", explains the psychologist Peter Gray, "when people who have no political power and are ruled in top-down fashion by others are required by law or economic necessity to remain in that setting."
Quote source, not the same link as in my comment above: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/freedom-to-learn/201005/school-bullying-a-tragic-cost-of-undemocratic-schools
Personal experience informs my opinion. I've been to all three places in my 78 years. Authority can remove a bully from a population of potential victims but all that happens is the second bully in line steps up. What stops a bully is a victim stepping up and clocking the bully, consequences be damned. Generally the consequences are delivered by the authority in charge. Ask me how I know.
It seems your knowledge comes from an education superior to mine. Good on ya. You wantm to know how it really works get down in the mud and rassle with the hogs.
Again, your lived experience in those places only helps demonstrate Peter Gray's point and my point about what happens in those places. I don't claim to have had "an education superior to yours"—I got plenty of bullying in government schools—but unlike you, I don't let despair keep me from acknowledging the success of the Sudbury experiment.